32bit antiX and kernels

[Member Snod Blatter]

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Hi all, I signed up just to reply here! I run antix 17 on a Slot 1 machine (mostly for fun) and would be happy with the latest 4.19 and 5.xx LTS kernels. I currently run 5.8.16 but would happily run 5.10 if it was offered because of the file system improvements. Personally I’ve seen no regressions using kernels later than 4.19 and don’t understand why people want 4.14/4.9/4.4? There again I’m not under severe memory pressure, having recently upgraded to 1GB(!).

[Member oops]

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Snod Blatter wrote:

… Personally I’ve seen no regressions using kernels later than 4.19 and don’t understand why people want 4.14/4.9/4.4? There again I’m not under severe memory pressure, having recently upgraded to 1GB(!).

Hello and welcome.
Because, on certain machines, only 4.4 and 4.14 work. (and 4.9 was the standard for old LTS)

• This reply was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by oops.

[Member andfree]

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Hi. I have three 32-bit old laptops working. The 4.4 (non-pae) kernel has kept alive two of them (a P4 & a celeron one). I have written here about the problems I had faced with the 4.9 kernel. The 4.4 kernel is supported until Feb, 2022. I don’t know what I’ll do afterwards.

[Member Danathar]

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oops wrote:

anticapitalista wrote:

We will still provide 32bit antiX for as long as Debian does (and beyond if we can).
However, to reduce the workload, I’m planning on cutting back on how many 32 bit kernels to offer.

If you use 32 bit antiX in any way (installed, frugal, live on a stick), which kernel do you use?

I’m thinking of dropping support for the 5 series kernel.

These kernel series will still be supported until they reach end of life (non-pae and pae).

4.4
4.9
4.19

Here the 4.9 for frugal install, (and 4.19 or 5.xx on my old eepc)

Were you able to get the onboard wifi on your EEPC working with Antix 19.3?

• This reply was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by Danathar.

[Member DaveW]

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This is a follow-up to my previous comment, that my only reason for 5.x kernel (on Antix 17, 32 bit) was to run Wireguard (which works okay with NordVPN, except for occasional OS lock-up with 5.x kernel).

The 4.9.x kernel has been very stable for me (on Dell D620, and Asus eeepc 900).
After installing the Wireguard-dkms kernel module, wireguard works fine on 4.9.x.
For Antix 17, wireguard-dkms is in repository: http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian unstable non-free contrib main
(already shown, but not selected in Synaptic repo list. Deselect repo after install, to prevent corruption of other stuff.)

So, I am okay with dropping support for 5.x kernel on 32 bit Antix.

Thanks!

[Member oops]

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Danathar wrote:

…
Were you able to get the onboard wifi on your EEPC working with Antix 19.3?

Yes, with connman-gtk and kernel: 4.19.180-antix.1-686-smp-pae

$ cat /proc/cmdline 
BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-4.19.180-antix.1-686-smp-pae root=UUID=axxx ro init=/sbin/e4rat-preload audit=0 ipv6.disable=1 pti=auto selinux=permissive resume=UUID=03xxxx quiet

$ inxi -N
Network:   Device-1: Realtek RTL8101/2/6E PCI Express Fast/Gigabit Ethernet driver: r8169 
           Device-2: Qualcomm Atheros AR928X Wireless Network Adapter driver: ath9k 
tof-antix@antix1:~
$ inxi -Nxxx
Network:   Device-1: Realtek RTL8101/2/6E PCI Express Fast/Gigabit Ethernet 
           vendor: Micro-Star MSI RTL810xE driver: r8169 v: kernel port: d000 bus ID: 01:00.0 
           chip ID: 10ec:8136 
           Device-2: Qualcomm Atheros AR928X Wireless Network Adapter 
           vendor: AzureWave AW-NE771 802.11bgn driver: ath9k v: kernel port: d000 bus ID: 02:00.0 
           chip ID: 168c:002a 

[Member samtix]

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A little late, but first of all, I really appreciate antiX – it is the best lightweight Linux distro hands down.

I use antiX-19.3-runit_386-full.iso, which has baffled me that it comes with kernel 4.9.
I thought antiX 19 was based off Debian 10 Buster, which has kernel 4.19? However, it comes with the same 4.9 kernel as Debian 9 Stretch.
https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=debian

The 4.19 kernel ISOs seem to be x64 only.
https://mirrors.evowise.com/mxlinux-iso/ANTIX/Final/antiX-19/4.19_kernel/

Is there a reason why antiX 19.3 comes with kernel 4.9 instead of 4.19?
I would prefer at least 4.19, and I wouldn’t mind 5.x kernels either (I run Fedora 33 on my other machine, haha). Where is the 5.x kernel option?
Debian 11 Bullseye comes with kernel 5.10 anyway, so I assume the next antiX based off that will also start using 5.10?
Or not? Does 32-bit antiX end in 3.5 years when 4.x kernel support ends?

• This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by samtix.

[Member Xecure]

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samtix wrote:

I thought antiX 19 was based off Debian 10 Buster

antiX uses Debian repos, uses the same quirks as Debian, but it isn’t really Debian. Every antiX ISO is built from scratch, and not using Debian net or anything similar, but does make use of Debian repos and Debian and antiX specific packages. It can be built with any kernel, and to keep it simple and avoid problems with package versions, it follows Debian releases and matches the repos to them.

samtix wrote:

The 4.19 kernel ISOs seem to be x64 only.

These isos were created to cater for new hardware, that didn’t exist when kernel 4.9 was released.

samtix wrote:

Is there a reason why antiX 19.3 comes with kernel 4.9 instead of 4.19?

Yes. Older 32 and 64 bits hardware is not the priority for the Linux kernel groups, and some new changes or additions bring incompatibilities and even regressions. To keep it safe, antiX releases with a 4.9 kernel version, which STILL IS SUPPORTED. Take a look at Longterm support releases in https://www.kernel.org/

You can install any kernel you want on Live USB (and remaster and live kernel updater) or from the installed system. For very new hardware, some of us in the community will create some community ISOs with newer kernels, but most people with new hardware aren’t really looking for minimalist distros, and one of antiX Linux main efforts is to keep old hardware alive and running.

antiX Live system enthusiast.
General Live Boot Parameters for antiX.

[Member samtix]

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antiX uses Debian repos, uses the same quirks as Debian, but it isn’t really Debian.

Yes, true, but having a solid and widely used/supported platform like Debian approve a particular version, makes a derivative distro a lot easier to approve for their own QA or duplicating patch sets or whatever.

Yes. Older 32 and 64 bits hardware is not the priority for the Linux kernel groups, and some new changes or additions bring incompatibilities and even regressions. To keep it safe, antiX releases with a 4.9 kernel version, which STILL IS SUPPORTED.

Okay, I guess older hardware would not be a priority for the kernel team, but they would still welcome such fixes. (e.g. the 25 year old gaming platform Nintendo 64 just had supported added to the latest 5.12 kernel! https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux-512-features&num=1)
However, since Debian already has supported 4.19 i686 – what regressions would not be covered by their QA? And not to mention the upcoming Debian Bullseye has kernel 5.10 i686. Wouldn’t it make supporting those kernel versions a whole lot easier?
I would hope an active Linux distro would use a supported kernel – and hence why I pointed out that 4.x kernel support runs out in 3.5 years.. then what? antiX’s hope is to support 32 bit even after Debian stops supporting it, but perhaps even Debian would support 32 bit longer than 3.5 years.

There seems to be a bit of an impression that the only or main benefit of newer kernels is support for new hardware. There are a whole bunch of other improvements in other subsystems – one off the top of my head is zstd compression support, which is much faster, and would benefit older hardware. Heck, even the floppy driver gets bug fixes in the latest 5.12 kernel: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-Floppy-Driver-In-2021

Or maybe I’m underestimating the effort to build off Debian’s 32 bit kernel releases…

[Forum Admin anticapitalista]

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Search the posts and you’ll soon see that some users NEED a 4.9 or even 4.4 kernel since their hardware does not run at all or badly on 4.19 and later.

Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

[Member samtix]

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I see – I presume that is a regression rather than support for that hardware being removed? And I assume Debian 10 would work equally badly on that hardware?
That’s a shame, but it requires someone’s effort to change.

How does one go about using a kernel version other than 4.9? Build it yourself? I’m not even sure if I’m one such person that needs 4.9, since I’ve never tried beyond.

[Member Xecure]

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@samtix
I understand your concerns, and it seems you haven’t used antiX for much or haven’t experienced yourself issues with older computers and newer kernels which only solution was to downgrade the kernel version. If you had spent some time in the antiX forum, you would discover that newer kernels enter into kernel panics on some older devices. Most of us in the community aren’t experts and try and volunteer our time to help solve issue as best we can, and don’t have the skills needed for applying for patches nor understanding the under-the-hood linux kernel C code, so the best recommendation we can give is to downgrade the kernel.

Regressions are inevitable. A fix for a driver to make it work correctly for one device can sometimes break other devices. People like me who lack enough technical knowledge cannot find the reason for a regression and, even when informing it as a bug, because we are a minority and the patch has fixed way more devices than the few ones that now experience regressions (and the developers don’t have time for investigating every device), we are ignored.
See: https://lwn.net/Articles/812231/ Regressions are inevitable, and many are fixed, but not all of them.

Many Brazilian users buy cheap computers made in china using VIA graphic chips that worked OK on Windows, but are problematic on Linux, and are not a priority for the kernel developers at all even if they have inundated the Brazilian market: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=OpenChrome-Needs-2019-Atomic
And lets not talk about SIS chips.

Also, a note: antiX doesn’t bring by default any Debian kernel installed, but compiles the kernels from kernel.org.
Examples of why I prefer this: Because of the buggy behavior of some touch tablet devices using silead input driver, the Debian teams have removed support for the driver (not compiled in the “Debian kernel”) and when asked in the past haven’t responded. Fortunately for me, antiX uses a kernel compiled separately, which gives me the support I need.

When the 4.9 kernel is no longer supported, future releases will use the 4.19 kernel to try and give support as best as possible, but users who cannot use it will remain on older kernels.
See distributions like slitaz, that still use a 3.16 kernel.

About installing newer kernels, you can do it like on any Debian syste. Install from synaptic, from terminal, from cli-aptiX or from package-installer.
See news about kernel release: https://antixlinux.com/blog/
For example, recent release of kernels for antiX 17 (Debian stretch) or for antiX 19, testing and sid.

Also, Debian will never approve of any small distro who needs to hack systemd out.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Xecure. Reason: Slitaz uses 3.16 and not 3.3 kernel

antiX Live system enthusiast.
General Live Boot Parameters for antiX.

[Forum Admin anticapitalista]

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In Package Installer – kernels or cli-aptiX, there are various options including a 5.10 kernel (unlike Debian stable which ONLY offers 4.19).

Also check for news about updated kernels: https://antixlinux.com/blog/

Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

[Member calciumsodium]

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For what its worth, I have been using antiX 19 using the 4.9.X-antix*.smp kernels on almost all my computers. These computers range as old as a Dell Dimension 2400 desktop (as old as 2003) and a HP Compaq Presario R3000 laptop (as old as 2004) to the modern HP 6200 Pro Minitower with an intel Core i5. The 4.9.X kernels work very well on these computers.

I appreciate that the antiX developers continue to update the 4.9.X kernels.

I have also tested the 5.X kernels to help with development of the antix-bullseye series. I have also tried 5.X kernels on some of my newer laptops. Many times, I revert back to 4.9.X kernels. That is how confident I have in the 4.9.X kernels even on the newer computers.

Thanks.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by calciumsodium.

[Member marcelocripe]

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Many Brazilian users buy cheap computers made in china using VIA graphic chips that worked OK on Windows, but are problematic on Linux, and are not a priority for the kernel developers at all even if they have inundated the Brazilian market:

I endorse the words of Xecure.

Here in Brazil, when I find it on new computers (with the lowest prices) or old ones that have SIS or Via video cards, this is something totally common. What surprises me, is when I find on new computers (at the lowest prices) an Intel or NVidia video card.

Several companies, said to be Brazilian, do not manufacture anything in the country, they buy everything from China, the Chinese companies manufacture according to the specifications requested by these Brazilian companies that resell these products with the Windows operating system pre-installed. Before it was Windows XP, then it started to be with Windows Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8 and more recently with Windows 10. Eventually, Windows work well with these SIS or Via video cards, but due to the limitations of the amount of RAM memory of these motherboards, any newer Windows has negligible performance on these undersized computers.

Xecure, I thank you for this gift “antiX-19-legacy-bet2_386-base.iso” with 4.4.240 kernel.

marcelocripe
(Original text in Brazilian Portuguese)

———-

Eu endosso as palavras do Xecure.

Aqui no Brasil, quando eu encontro em computadores novos (com os menores preços) ou antigos que possuem placa de vídeo SIS ou Via, isso é algo totalmente comum. O que me deixa surpreso, é quando encontro em computadores novos (com os menores preços) placa de vídeo Intel ou NVidia.

Várias empresas, ditas Brasileiras, não fabricam nada no país, compram tudo da China, as empresas chinesas fabricam conforme as especificações solicitadas por estas empresas Brasileiras que revendem estes produtos com o sistema operacional Windows pré instalado. Antes era o Windows XP, depois passou a ser com o Windows Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8 e mais recentemente com o Windows 10. Eventualmente, os Windows funcionam bem com estas placas de vídeo SIS ou Via, mas devido as limitações de quantidade de memória RAM destas placa-mãe, qualquer Windows mais recente possui desempenho insignificante nestes computadores subdimensionados.

Xecure, eu te agradeço por este presente “antiX-19-legacy-bet2_386-base.iso” com kernel 4.4.240.

marcelocripe
(Texto original em Português do Brasil)

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