- This topic has 62 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated Apr 22-3:42 am by BobC.
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BobC
Application names, no matter what they are, should remain the same. The DESCRIPTION of what they do may be freely translated.
Yes, exactly.
Now the menu says:
ArandrInstead the menu would say:
Arandr-Screen SettingsJust like at a restaurant, the menu is there so you know what’s available.
PS: According to the IceWM devs, a tooltip pop up isn’t possible
anticapitalista
If we use descriptions in the menu, the menu would be very very very wide.
eg arandr has 6 characters v its description of 22.
Translated Portuguese, for example, would probably double it 🙂Just think what ‘reviewers’ would then say about the menu.
Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.
antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.
sybok
How about allowing turning the descriptions off/on and the switch placed conveniently close to the top or bottom of the menu?
Default: current state, turned off.
Consequence: at least two files representing the menu(s), with and without the descriptions.Not quite sure:
– If this could be applicable without restarting the session; I know fluxbox can reload and apply the settings (and re-draw all windows) without logging the user off.
– How this approach would/could handle applications installed from elsewhere and added into the menu.anticapitalista
Just to see an example of how wide it will be.
Boot live, choose F2 Portuguese (since it is well translated), open control centre.
The control centre uses descriptions rather than names.
Also have a look at the menu especially under Applications.Is that what users really want to see?
- This reply was modified 1 year ago by anticapitalista.
Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.
antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.
anticapitalista
Adding Generic Name – would involve changing all/most of our .desktop files and getting them translated. (There are a *lot* of them).
If anyone wants to volunteer to do this, please let me know.Re: IceWM menu – we do not use the one provided by IceWM (icewm-menu-fdo) so any upstream changes made to it will not make any difference.
Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.
antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.
blur13
Interesting discussion. I know xfce allows the menu to also display the descriptions of what each program does. You only really need to do that once, look through what each program does, and then revert to simply displaying the names. In my opinion the menu becomes a mess when you include information on what each menu entry does. I much prefer having it as it is. Over time you learn exactly what each program is for. The most commonly used programs get attached to key combinations and the menu rarely gets used.
Then there is the old RTFM, or GIYF. Dont know what arandr does? Too afraid to open it? Do an online search. Or just open it and its pretty obvious what its for. If you completely cater to the “I dont know anything and cant be bothered to find out” beginner you’ll alienate the more experienced crowd.
Yes, even in English there are ones that have no Generic Name!
I like sybok’s idea of having a toggle to turn menu descriptions (ie generic name) on or off and refresh the menu. It could default to off until translations are in for most languages.
I will offer to go through all the desktop entries included and make sure they have a good generic name in English. What will be the best way to give it to you? What is a good maximum length? 25, 30, 40, 50 characters?
There is another possibility. The Name that is supplied sometimes includes a little description, for example MTPaint Graphic Editor, and if it does, then we don’t need a generic name. We could make the generic name empty on those to avoid needing to enter or translate them.
Brian Masinick
I like the thought and possibilities.
Let’s try out (at least to test) a few of them and then go with the solution that works out best.
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Brian Masinickanticapitalista
There is another possibility. The Name that is supplied sometimes includes a little description, for example MTPaint Graphic Editor, and if it does, then we don’t need a generic name. We could make the generic name empty on those to avoid needing to enter or translate them.
There is still the problem that packages from upstream Debian may not include the information. We cannot be expected to ‘fix’ this even for those installed on antiX.
Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.
antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.
ModdIt
If it is possible to permanently turn further descriptions off in the menu, and the hide menu item setting from control center still is active ok with change here.
Already when I open some submenus in German I have 1/3 of bottom area on a super widescreen monitor covered by menu submenu. That is with a lot of pruning already done.
Definitely full agreement with blur13 on below but would add: and encourage lazy users to become even lazier.
Dont know what arandr does? Too afraid to open it? Do an online search. Or just open it and its pretty obvious what its for. If you completely cater to the “I dont know anything and cant be bothered to find out” beginner you’ll alienate the more experienced crowd.
marcelocripe
If we use descriptions in the menu, the menu would be very very very wide.
eg aandr has 6 characters v its description of 22.
Translated English, for example, would probably double itI ask you to look at the texts of the GitLab contribs or the file Transifex antix-desktop-files antix-contribs, these are the texts we need here in Brazil. It is for anyone who can read Brazilian Portuguese to be able to immediately read and understand what Feh, ARandR, Dillo, ISO Snapshot and all others are.
Just think what ‘reviewers’ would then say about the menu.
Will they say that the menu texts are large but understandable?
Is antiX for people using this operating system or is it for reviewers who don’t use antiX and also don’t frequent this important forum?
Is the menu text large? Don’t worry about it, on Windows the text is big too. I’ve never seen anyone complaining about having large texts.Just to see an example of how wide it will be.
Boot live, choose F2 Portuguese (since it is well translated), open control center.
The control center uses descriptions rather than names.
Also have a look at the menu especially under Applications.If you test in Portuguese (BR) you will see that I try to keep the original name of the program in some part of the text of the program. I always include the original name, or I include it in the name of the .desktop file, or I include it in the comment of the .desktop file, or in the text that is displayed by clicking the Help button, or in the text that is displayed by clicking of the About button. When there is no space in the program window or there is no Help button or the About button, I include the original name in English language right after the adapted name in Brazilian Portuguese in the title bar of the window, as seen in the App program Select (it was very difficult to find out where the text that would be used in the window title was).
Then there is the old RTFM, or GIYF. Dont know what aandr does? Too afraid to open it? Do an online search. Or just open it and its pretty obvious what its for. If you completely cater to the “I don’t know anything and can’t be bothered to find out” beginner you’ll alienate the more experienced crowd.
But it’s not just for ARandR, it’s for all programs. I spent more time researching on the internet about each program than to build the texts in Brazilian Portuguese language. Other people don’t need to waste their valuable time researching what zzzFM does. What about programs created by the antiX community? They don’t exist anywhere else, if you can’t understand what a particular program does, you won’t be able to use the program. Imagine the following situation, antiX has the program that the user needs, but because it does not understand what is written, it installs another program that does exactly the same function.
I will offer to go through all the desktop entries included and make sure they have a good generic name in English.
We, from the antiX volunteer translator team, need volunteers to proofread all texts in en_US and en_GB languages, preferably by native speakers of each of the two countries. Any improvement of the English language texts will beneficially reflect on the texts of the other languages when they are revised by other native translators.
We are talking (writing) here about communication and how words can make it easier or harder for people to understand.
Yesterday, I re-listed all the multimedia player programs available in antiX in the Telegram and WhatsApp groups, every half a dozen new users that arrive in these groups, the same questions are asked. Good thing all these new users don’t come here on the forum asking where the file manager is, or what the audio player or the video player is. Can you imagine what this forum would be like? A lot of Brazilians asking the same question from time to time? I don’t think anyone wants that.
When the new texts that are available in GitLab contribs and in Transifex contribs are used in the next ISOs and in the next updates of antiX 19 and antiX 21, I will no longer need to repeat the same explanations for new users, because everything will be written clearly and objectively in the menus.
And once again, I hope the machine translation doesn’t destroy my good intentions.
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If we use descriptions in the menu, the menu would be very very very wide.
eg arandr has 6 characters v its description of 22.
Translated Portuguese, for example, would probably double itEu peço que olhem para os textos do GitLab contribs ou para o arquivo antix-desktop-files do Transifex do antix-contribs, são estes os textos que precisamos aqui no Brasil. É para qualquer pessoa que saiba ler em idioma Português do Brasil poder ler e compreender imediatamente o que é ou o que faz o Feh, ARandR, Dillo, ISO Snapshot e de todos os outros.
Just think what ‘reviewers’ would then say about the menu.
Será que eles irão dizer que os textos dos menus são grandes mas compreensíveis?
O antiX é para as pessoas utilizarem este sistema operacional ou é para os revisores que não utilizam o antiX e também não frequentam este importante fórum?
O texto do menu é grande? Não se preocupe com isso, no Windows o texto também é grande. Eu nunca vi alguém reclamando por ter textos grandes.Just to see an example of how wide it will be.
Boot live, choose F2 Portuguese (since it is well translated), open control centre.
The control centre uses descriptions rather than names.
Also have a look at the menu especially under Applications.Se vocês testarem em Português (BR) verão que eu tento manter o nome original do programa em alguma parte do texto do programa. Eu sempre incluo o nome original, ou eu incluo no nome do arquivo .desktop, ou eu incluo no comentário do arquivo .desktop, ou no texto que é exibido com o clique do botão de Ajuda, ou no texto que é exibido com o clique do botão Sobre. Quando não há espaço na janela do programa ou não há botão de Ajuda ou o botão Sobre, eu incluo o nome original em idioma Inglês logo após do nome adaptado em Português do Brasil na barra de título da janela, como pode ser visto no programa App Select (foi muito difícil descobrir onde era o texto que iria ser utilizado no título da janela).
Then there is the old RTFM, or GIYF. Dont know what arandr does? Too afraid to open it? Do an online search. Or just open it and its pretty obvious what its for. If you completely cater to the “I dont know anything and cant be bothered to find out” beginner you’ll alienate the more experienced crowd.
Mas não é só para o ARandR, é para todos os programas. Eu passei mais tempo pesquisando na internet sobre cada programa do que para construir os textos em idioma Português do Brasil. As outras pessoas não precisam ficar perdendo o seu valioso tempo para pesquisar o que o zzzFM faz. E os programas criados pela comunidade antiX? Não existem em nenhum outro lugar, se você não conseguir compreender o que um determinado programa faz, não conseguirá utilizar o programa. Imagina a seguinte situação, o antiX possui o programa que o usuário precisa, mas por não compreender o que está escrito, instala um outro programa que faz exatamente a mesma função.
I will offer to go through all the desktop entries included and make sure they have a good generic name in English.
Nós, da equipe de tradutores voluntários do antiX, precisamos de voluntários para revisarem todos os textos em idioma en_US e en_GB, preferencialmente por nativos de cada um dos dois países. Toda melhoria dos textos em idioma Inglês refletirão beneficamente nos textos dos outros idiomas quando forem revisados por outros tradutores nativos.
Nós estamos conversando (escrevendo) aqui sobre a comunicação e como as palavras podem facilitar ou dificultar a compreensão das pessoas.
Ontem, eu listei novamente todos os programas reprodutores de multimídia disponíveis no antiX nos grupos de Telegram e WhatsApp, a cada meia dúzia de novos usuários que chegam nestes grupos, as mesmas perguntas são feitas. Ainda bem que todos estes novos usuários não vem aqui no fórum perguntar onde está o gerenciador de arquivos, ou qual é o reprodutor de áudio ou o reprodutor de vídeo. Já imaginaram como seria este fórum? Uma porção de Brasileiros fazendo a mesma pergunta de tempos em tempos? Eu acho que ninguém quer isso.
Quando os novos textos que estão disponíveis no GitLab contribs e no Transifex contribs forem utilizados nas próximas ISOs e nas próximas atualizações do antiX 19 e no antiX 21, eu não irei mais precisar ficar repetindo as mesmas explicações para os novos usuários, pois estará tudo escrito de forma clara e objetiva no menus.
E mais uma vez, eu espero que a tradução automática não destrua a minha boa intenção.
Brian Masinick
Regarding anything lacking upstream – that is, from Debian – the only thing we can do there, for those who have the interest, time, and experience, is to either suggest, demonstrate, recommend, or changes, defect reports, or fixes to the Debian applications that lack appropriate features or documentation. In cases where the “lack of information” comes from the app itself, then, as we might imagine, reporting and contributing to the original provider of the application is the only lasting way to help, and in that case, if accepted, it contributes to the larger free source code community, sometimes even beyond the “Linux” border to programs that are compiled not only for Linux, but also for a variety of operating systems. Contributing back to the originators of the software is “optimal”, but probably not practical for most of us. For anyone who IS in a position to contribute in that way, I highly recommend it.
As for me, I’m no longer in a position to do that, but I have done this MANY times over the course of my career, and it has directly and specifically contributed to many free programs that I like, both in the UNIX and Linux spaces. Though perhaps “minor” and not visible to many people, I’ve even been fortunate enough to actually see a couple of those changes directly in the code (but it was a LONG time ago now).
But maybe, just maybe, this will be an encouragement to some person who is curious enough and persistent enough to dig and find the source of a problem, maybe even identify the source code – and send a bug fix, functionality or documentation improvement, to the source, and get the small reward of seeing their effort percolate through worldwide freely available software! (I can *dream*, can’t I)?
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Brian MasinickBrian Masinick
Interesting discussion. I know xfce allows the menu to also display the descriptions of what each program does. You only really need to do that once, look through what each program does, and then revert to simply displaying the names. In my opinion the menu becomes a mess when you include information on what each menu entry does. I much prefer having it as it is. Over time you learn exactly what each program is for. The most commonly used programs get attached to key combinations and the menu rarely gets used.
Then there is the old RTFM, or GIYF. Dont know what arandr does? Too afraid to open it? Do an online search. Or just open it and its pretty obvious what its for. If you completely cater to the “I dont know anything and cant be bothered to find out” beginner you’ll alienate the more experienced crowd.
This is worth some thought. I’m on the side of providing some information; it may be worth providing only a few words of explanation and a link to the software developer’s documentation, if there is anything available; otherwise if the development team of the application doesn’t document their work, it’s questionable whether it’s worth putting in the effort, that’s up to individuals to decide for themselves.
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Brian Masinickcalciumsodium
Hi,
I would prefer to keep the .desktop items as they are presently. Keep is as simple as possible. If there is to be extra wording or description, can that be put into one separate document that lists all the programs. This list can be placed in the Help menu or some other convenient place that users can quickly look up?In that file, it could have something like this:
Name Generic Name Description Gparted Partition tool Creates partition, manages flags, etc.- This reply was modified 1 year ago by calciumsodium.
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