Antix 19.2 ctrl+ alt not working in IceWM with FR keymap

Forum Forums General Hardware Antix 19.2 ctrl+ alt not working in IceWM with FR keymap

  • This topic has 52 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated May 15-9:06 pm by Robin.
Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 53 total)
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  • #106605
    Member
    Robin

      Dear Wallon,

      There are no international keyboard shortcuts.

      There are. All ctrl + whatever (including ctrl + alt + whatever) are control sequences, and do work on all other keyboard layouts I know. All the ctrl + whatever combinations are not meant on any keyboard to produce actual characters. So I don’t see any plausible reason azerty designers have messed them up.

      This will not work for English and Spanish keyboards. There is no “Alt Gr” key.

      Also this is simply wrong:

      English keyboard layout with AltGR
      (English keyboard layout showing AltGR key, Source: commons.wikimedia.org)

      For example, a linux distribution of French origin will make keyboard shortcuts with the “Alt Gr” key.

      So they could have kept the ctrl + alt key combinations as well, and use the AltGr for additonal characters instead, which now obviously block the control sequences used by literally all software.

      As there are no more free spaces on the keys

      This is not the issue. The issue is that the designers have messed up the ctrl key combinations, expecting now all programs and OS to change the control sequences to the AltGr key instead of using the AltGr key for those additional characters.
      And if there is a lack of keys for the french alphabet, you’d rather need different hardware, with some additional keys on it to make it work. I don’t see any reason not to add one more row to the hardware keyboard layout since it obviously is needed…

      Now the antiX community knows that keyboard shortcuts do not automatically work with all keyboards.

      This is not an issue of some antiX tools only, it is present in thousands of programs out there due to the way the azerty treats the control keys. And it is not an issue of antiX only, it is present in other Linux as well, and also in completely different OS like Windows and Apple/Mac.

      So, we need an ISO image that adapts the keyboard shortcuts to the keyboard of each country.

      This is something which defintively antiX can’t stem. You’d need to create specific control key mappings for each program you can install on antiX to make it work. That’s simply impossible. And in many of them the control key codes are hard coded, not configurable at all. Don’t know what the azerty designers think who should do all this.

      I stick to my original statement: This is something the designers of azerty keyboard layout or the respective keyboard drivers need to fix, so the international control sequences mapped to the ctrl+something combinations are properly sent to all the programs also from french keyboards.

      As long as azerty keyboard designers don’t care for sticking to the international used control key sequences, the users will have to deal with all the missing shortcuts in all the programs in their language on their own.

      Kind regards
      Robin

      Windows is like a submarine. Open a window and serious problems will start.

      #106617
      Moderator
      Brian Masinick

        Also, with xmodmap(1) you can map any key to any command; I’ve done this numerous times.
        On my UNIX workstations with DEC VT220 or VT240 features and emulation, I also had
        twelve (12) function keys, and I used every one of them to make the majority of my
        keystroke functions a one click operation.

        Read the details here: http://linux.die.net/man/1/xmodmap

        In conjunction with the works that Robin has already demonstrated, there is zero
        reason why you have to be missing any key; just redefine another sequence and
        it’s done.

        As I also stated, Robin also provided mappings in a previous post.

        --
        Brian Masinick

        #106623
        Moderator
        Brian Masinick

          http://linux.die.net/man/1/setxkbmap
          http://linux.die.net/man/7/xkeyboard-config

          The complete X specification definitely has files that can
          be configured to map to particular keyboards. The actual
          work to accomplish this is *NOT* included by default.

          I’ve not seen any standard Linux implementations include
          any keyboard modifications, but they are certainly possible.

          --
          Brian Masinick

          #106657
          Member
          Wallon

            Dear Robin,

            Here is the picture of the English en_US keyboard in Debian 12 testing.
            There is a left Alt key and a right Alt key.
            There is no Alt Gr key.

            Cordialement,
            Wallon

            Attachments:
            #106659
            Member
            abc-nix

              This is probably related to the system keyboard layout program that comes with antiX. Launch it from the menu or from the control centre, and in the hotkeys (or something like that) tab, change the hotkey for switching to another layout to use a different key combination (or no combination at all).

              If this isn’t the reason, please ignore this message.

              #106660
              Member
              Robin

                Dear Wallon,

                There is no Alt Gr key.

                That’s the simple variant of the US keyboard. I own an old cherry US keyboard also showing alt on the left and right side both (and still no „Windows” key), but actually the right Alt key works as AltGR, whatever is printed on it.
                As you can see in your attached file both Alt keys have additional imprints: Meta L and Meta R, and this is what makes them unique. Whether the simple US layout makes use of the AltGR meta keyboard level is another question, this depends on what the layout designers have programmed (Just like in the azerty keyboard layout).
                And you will notice there are 20-30 Variants of English keyboards available in antiX 23 control center, some of them providing the AltGR key and some of them not.
                If debian 12 actually comes only with the simple variant lacking of the AltGR key the user must take care for installing the proper version on his own on plain debian in case he needs it, I guess.

                The central question is: Does the presence or absence of an explicit AltGR key affect in any way the functionallity of the control key combinations (Ctrl+Alt+Whatever or Ctrl+Whatever)? I’d say the answer is: No, it doesn’t. And this is what makes the decisions of azerty layout designers that problematic. The azerty keyboard breaks all the control keys, while it shouldn’t touch them. Control key combinations are not printed characters, so why reassign them, rendering all the programs fail with their default shortcuts?

                Best regards
                Robin

                Windows is like a submarine. Open a window and serious problems will start.

                #106665
                Member
                Wallon

                  Dear Robin,

                  I did some more tests with IceWM. It’s to cry!

                  I install antiX in English en_US with my Belgian azerty keyboard which is 100% recognized.
                  These keyboard shortcuts work;

                  
                  # Wingrid on Ctrl+ KP rose
                  key "Ctrl+Shift+KP_Left" wingrid-left.sh # Left-Move window to Left 
                  key "Ctrl+Shift+KP_Right" wingrid-right.sh # Right-Move window to Right 
                  key "Ctrl+Shift+KP_Up" wingrid-top.sh # Up-Move window Top 
                  key "Ctrl+Shift+KP_Down" wingrid-bottom.sh # Down-Move window to Bottom 
                  key "Ctrl+Shift+KP_Home" wingrid-topleft.sh # Home-Move window to Top Left 
                  key "Ctrl+Shift+KP_Prior" wingrid-topright.sh # PgUp-Move window Top Right 
                  key "Ctrl+Shift+KP_End" wingrid-bottomleft.sh # End-Move window to Bottom Left 
                  key "Ctrl+Shift+KP_Next" wingrid-bottomright.sh # PgDn-Move window to Bottom Right 
                  key "Ctrl+Shift+KP_Insert" wingrid-maximize.sh # 0-Maximize window 
                  key "Ctrl+Shift+KP_Begin" wingrid-center.sh # 5-Center window
                  key "Ctrl+Shift+KP_Delete" wingrid-close.sh # .-Close window
                  key "Ctrl+Shift+KP_Add" wingrid-grow.sh # +-Grow window
                  key "Ctrl+Shift+KP_Subtract" wingrid-shrink.sh # --Shrink window
                  

                  I do the same installation in French on the same computer with my Belgian azerty keyboard which is also 100% recognized
                  The same keyboard shortcuts do not work anymore.
                  Even if I change the flag at the bottom of the screen to an en_US keyboard, it doesn’t work.

                  I think someone has thoroughly modified X11 in French. Is it possible that X11 is different in French and English? It can’t be from antiX, I’m pretty sure.

                  Cordialement,
                  Wallon

                  #106667
                  Forum Admin
                  anticapitalista

                    @Wallon – have you tested MX-23 alpha to see if the same happens with their Xfce or KDE or fluxbox versions?

                    Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

                    antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

                    #106676
                    Member
                    Wallon

                      Dear anticapitalista,

                      This is a very embarrassing question.
                      If I answer it, I’ll get in trouble with the MX developers.
                      This will come out.

                      I’m telling you, I’m going to be in trouble…
                      I am the only translator for MX Linux in fr and fr_BE.

                      Kind regards,
                      Wallon

                      #106688
                      Member
                      Wallon

                        Dear anticapitalista,

                        Azerty keyboards work well with desktop environments like Debian Gnome, Linux Mint, XFCE, KDE because they behave like Windows.
                        They are “magnetized” windows that expand when you move them with the mouse. The windows enlarge or shrink by themselves with the movement of the mouse.
                        I use the universal keyboard shortcut “Windows key” + arrow pad in all desktop environments.

                        For window managers like Fluxbox, IceWM, JWM, there are many keyboard shortcuts. It’s not like in a desktop environment. This is not new, window managers have never been a good match for azerty keyboards. Remember, at my request, you added a screen in the antiX installer to select the language. With an azerty keyboard, you couldn’t type the word “demo” to change the keyboard in the Live USB key menu. We had many discussions with Brian about this. I thank you very much for this great work in the installer.

                        Now what to do? I mainly use JWM which behaves best with a dual screen installation with Google Chrome and I have added the “Windows Key” + arrow pad keyboard shortcuts.

                        It’s really too much work to redo the keyboard shortcuts for each installation in IceWM / Fluxbox / JWM. It is estimated that 60% to 70% of shortcuts do not work.

                        Buy a mouse with 20 buttons to add keyboard shortcuts to help azerty keyboards? It’s not common and people will use another distribution.

                        There is a script from Canonical to find the numbers with the Caps Lock key on azerty keyboards but the installation is really heavy and you lose 4 letters of the French alphabet. For me, this solution will make people run away.

                        There should be keyboard shortcuts that work directly after installing antiX for azerty keyboards. There should be a kind of respin that could be called « azantiX » (= azerty + antiX). When I read the old threads between Bobc and Skidoo about keyboard shortcuts, I think it’s a pity that nobody with an azerty keyboard was interested in the subject and did some testing. At the time, I didn’t know about antiX and I was just finishing using Xubuntu 18 without the “Snap” packages. All the French speakers started with the Ubuntu family because there is a huge documentation in French.

                        I like antiX but for keyboard shortcuts with azerty, I don’t know what to do. What is certain is that it prevents the spread of antiX to the azerty community.

                        You still have my gratitude for your dedication to the antiX community.

                        Wallon

                        #106708
                        Member
                        Robin

                          Just a question: Does the Ctrl+Alt combination on azerty keyboard layouts behave like the AltGR key? If so, this might point to the root of the issue.

                          This (wrong) assignment might have been added as a dirty workaround for backward compatibility with physical keyboards providing only a left Alt key.

                          Basically the ctrl key and none of its combinations with whatever other keys (including the alt key) should work as a keyboard layer modifier to produce characters. Otherwise you’ll break all control key sequences in all programs, not only in the window manager of the OS.

                          They are “magnetized” windows that expand when you move them with the mouse. The windows enlarge or shrink by themselves with the movement of the mouse.

                          Avoiding control sequences completely and use of the mouse instead is not a solution. Keyboard shortcuts are there to avoid mouse action for professional high speed working. You will find the issue in all the programs which make extensive use of Ctrl+Alt shortcuts as control sequences. This leads to the next problem I see:

                          There should be a kind of respin that could be called « azantiX »

                          Who should be able to reassign the control key sequences in all the programs which make use of it? For each language specific layout separately? I don’t see anybody who could stem this. I consider this approach as not realisable. The sheer number of programs affected renders this next to impossible.

                          Now what to do?

                          »OS X’s solution works perfectly: Dvorak + QWERTY shortcuts layout. It’s brilliant and elegant, Windows needs to implement the same thing (revert to QWERTY when holding the ctrl or windows keys).«

                          (Quoted from http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26743028)

                          This is actually what should be done with the azerty keyboard layout used by antiX, then you won’t see these issues any longer. It would solve the azerty shortcut issues with all programs and the window managers in one go. Not sure whether the keyboard layout desingners/programmers can add this, or whether antiX can solve this programatically on OS level.

                          My first guess is we’d need some routine that hooks up in the key processing routines, catching all Ctrl key events and immediately resetting the layout temporarily to US-English (or any other layout providing the proper control keys), just as long the control key is pressed, returning back to the former keyboard layout as soon the Ctrl key is released.

                          Second guess is we could alternatively use a modified azerty keyboard layout adding the qwerty layout for the Ctrl shortcuts for at least French, Belgian and Polish language as the antiX default. This also would do the trick.

                          As said already, the layout for control key combinations should never ever change the control sequences sent, in no language specific keyboard layout, these are no characters and there is really no need to break them all when designing a non US keyboard. This is something the azerty layout designers have messed up, and now the user runs into the issues caused by this poor design decision.

                          Windows is like a submarine. Open a window and serious problems will start.

                          #106716
                          Member
                          Robin

                            After some testing: An interesting finding.

                            The issue you describe with the azerty control keys, @Wallon, is only present when starting up antiX to Belgian French on antiX boot menu. (Possible other languages might be affected also).

                            I did the following experiment:

                            – I booted antiX to German in antiX 23 boot menu, and only from zzz-IceWM Desktop I changed the keyboard layout to whatever azerty variant (using antiX control center).
                            Then all the control keys do work fine on azerty (while the general azerty layout is present on a physical 105 keys keyboard as far I can tell. Please, could you countercheck whether some special characters of French alphabet are missing for you this way, and whether the Control+Alt+whatever key combinations on azerty do work for you this way?

                            – I booted antiX directly to Belgian in antiX 23 boot menu. Then the azerty keyboard layout applies to the Desktop and all started programs immediately.
                            But now all the Control+Alt+something key combinations fail.

                            So this is possibly something not related to the azerty PC keyboard layout itself, but to the way it is engaged when booting directly to the Belgian desktop.

                            Windows is like a submarine. Open a window and serious problems will start.

                            #106725
                            Forum Admin
                            anticapitalista

                              This is what is set if booting live with BE_FR set via F keys.

                              COUNTRY=”Belgo-française”
                              WM_LANG=”fr_BE”
                              KEYBOARDS=”be,fr,us”
                              KEYTABLE=”be2-latin1″
                              LANG=”fr_BE.UTF-8″
                              MIRROR=”be”
                              TZ=”Europe/Brussels”
                              XKBLAYOUT=”be,fr,us”

                              Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

                              antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

                              #106728
                              Member
                              Wallon

                                Dear Robin,

                                You can do the test in your language in German but for other regions with German azerty keyboard.
                                The azerty keyboard has 105 keys. There are more keys on an azerty keyboard than on a querty keyboard.
                                The extra key is located at the bottom near the shift key on the left.
                                I’m sorry, I don’t know German and it will be difficult for me to follow the screens for the installation.

                                For the German community in Belgium, the installation is German_Belgium = de_BE and the keyboard is azerty_BE.

                                For Alsace and Lorraine in France, the installation is German_France = de_FR and the keyboard is azerty_FR.

                                I come back with a test with antiX 22 in fr_FR with azerty keyboard France.

                                Cordialement,
                                Wallon

                                #106729
                                Member
                                Wallon

                                  There is an African Cameroon azerty keyboard in Debian 12.

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