antiX-23.1 coming soon [actually, it is AVAILABLE!]

Forum Forums antiX-development Development antiX-23.1 coming soon [actually, it is AVAILABLE!]

  • This topic has 467 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated Feb 26-9:42 pm by blur13.
Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 468 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #127100
    Moderator
    Brian Masinick

      Well. Since nobody mentioned this. Are we runit testers going to have reinstall?

      I keep my installs updated and current.

      I’ll speculate on this since I’ve been around here since our very first build prior to any release:

      If you are up to date and happy with what you have (and it is still supported), you do not have to install or reinstall.

      It would be nice if some of us *would* install anyway, just to make sure everything continues to work as expected and there aren’t any “rare” mistakes. Recall that antiX 23 “worked” but there were a few things that needed to be corrected for everything to be perfect, so it helps to get as many “informed eyes” checking out our latest stuff as possible, but that is “helpful” rather than absolutely required.

      If I’m wrong about any of this I’m sure whatever is incorrect or inaccurate will be corrected; that’s what I’ve seen many times over the course of our history, so I’m expressing my opinion based on what I’ve seen many times.

      --
      Brian Masinick

      #127101
      Member
      blur13

        I switch from pipewire to alsa by doing a complete purge of pipewire and anything related, except the lib package required by mpv. I can report that everything works as expected on the applications I happen to use. I do have ao=alsa in mpv config, but I *think* that was mainly to remove an error message because mpv by default tries pipe/pulse first, generates an error message, then moves on to alsa. Having ao=alsa bypasses this.

        Obviously I’d prefer a (full) release with alsa as default but I can see the case for having pipewire be the default audio. Its more of a “it just works” approach. When I was new to antix I switched to pulse for this reason. Then a point release caused pulse to fail so I was forced to learn more about alsa. I’m glad I did. Havent looked back since.

        My only recommendation would be to *not* include alsamixer-equalizer-antix, so that when a user switches from pipe to alsa they dont experience audio deterioration (as reported by me and confirmed by calciumsodium, so a sample of n=2).

        #127102
        Member
        Robin

          alsamixer-equalizer-antix

          The tool alsamixer-equalizer-antix is one of the most important means to get clean and linear sound from the PC. By no means drop this from the release, it’s essential for alsa-only audio output to analog and digital line out. And were is the pendant of this equalizer in pipewire? Haven’t found it by now (but seen some hints that there is something similar supposed to exist) I really miss it while running on pipewire. Most people (including me) don’t own a standalone multiband equalizer so alsamixer-equalizer-antix is by now the only way to fix poor (nonlinear) sound coming from PC.

          Windows is like a submarine. Open a window and serious problems will start.

          #127172
          Member
          blur13

            I’m not in any way knowledgeable about audio so I might have completely misunderstood what you are asking for, but have you tried the package easyeffects?

            #127184
            Member
            Xunzi_23

              Thanks for info anticapitalista, and for the great distro.

              I will not reinstall and will strongly advise those I support not to do so
              too many have had sound loss issues for me to ignore problems.

              Once the release comes I will figure out how to keep present installs safe
              and updated.

              #127190
              Member
              Robin

                @blur13:

                You didn’t misunderstand anything. It’s all about a virtual graphical equalizer, an equivalent to something like this. Your recommendation to check out easyeffects is really great. I didn’t know I had to install this separately, even didn’t know it exists. Great finding, really.
                After starting it first time it told me something about “linux studio plugins” missing when trying to access the graphical equalizer. Without this you can’t do anything with the easyeffects program, except for watching lots of nice bars moving up and down constantly to the sound of music 🙂 so why isn’t this essential set as a dependency rather than a recommendation merely? Anyhow, you need to install https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/lsp-plugins-lv2 additionally to make something from it.

                But then it works great (see screenshot)! Many many thanks for making me aware of this tool, blur13. Sound under pipewire is now as good as it was before on plain alsa. This tool is a must-have for pipewire users.

                @anticapitalista: I plead for having easyeffects + equalizer plugin in the upcoming antiX ISO (as an equivalent for pipewire users for what ALSA users have always had on antiX: the good ol’ alsamixer-equalizer-antix, which should stay present in future antiX releases for sake of alsa-pure users. It would be a great loss if removed. Most audio chips come with pretty poor default sound quality.

                Moreover the equalizer (without regard of whether you run plain ALSA or the pipewire sound server) allows you to have the very same sound impression independently whether volume is set to low or high values. For understanding this you’d need some background knowledge about acoustic perception. The basics is: due to characteristics of human auditory perception a recording played back (this includes listening to e.g. radio) sounds poor and weak if played at low volume. To compensate this you have to run the signal through a multiband equalizer, allowing correction of output level for different frequencies in the signal separately. Instead of giving a lecture about all the details here I’ll just link to some wikipedia entries you can read to undestand why it is essential to have at least an equalizer present by default:

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_compensation
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_(audio)
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting#Audio_reproduction_and_broadcasting_equipment
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure#Examples
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_threshold_of_hearing

                All this applies not only for studio level audio processing, as well it improves perceptible audio output on poor consumer level devices and PCs remarkably. Additionally you can compensate for different acoustic characteristics of the room you attending in. Once you have licked at it, you’ll never again want to do without. User has just to invest some time one-off to set up some presets (experiment with the sliders with caution, you can run into nonlinear distortion (clipping) from amplifier easily when doing to fiercely) which meet the characteristics of his personal equipment, his room, his ears. Then he can simply switch between these presets later and forget about all the details.

                What is additionally needed:
                In antiX control centre the equalizer button must get crafted to detect whether user is running on plain ALSA or on Pipewire currently, and then either start
                alsamixer -D equalizer
                or
                easyeffects
                depending what is currently activated by the pipewire-switch in antiX control centre.

                Please note: The default alsa-equalizer fails to work if the system runs with the pipewire layer on top of ALSA activated. I found all its settings being ignored then, not having any effect on the timbre. This renders necessary to have an additional equivalent equaliser, now having pipewire activated by default in antiX.

                @anticapitalista Something like
                if [ "$(inxi -A | grep -F 'Sound Server' | grep -F 'PipeWire' | rev | cut -d' ' -f1)" == "sey" ]; then easyeffects; else alsamixer -D equalizer; fi
                could do the job already. I’ve elaborated this a bit and implemented to antiX control centre this morning, sent a merge request. Tested successfully on antiX 23 runit full in 32 bit and 64 bit both.

                Works this way: If pipewire server not running or wireplumber not installed (this package containing wpctl) the alsamixer from alsamixer-equalizer-antix package will come up for plain alsa users. In the other case, if pipewire found to be up and running, the pipewire compatible easyeffects equaliser will pop open with the same button in control center now.

                Windows is like a submarine. Open a window and serious problems will start.

                #127193
                Member
                Robin

                  @Xunzi_23
                  please give pipewire a chance. It can work really great, but it can fail also horribly on some hardware. This goes in particular for weak hardware, on which it will cause an amount of additional system load which can keep other programs from working fluently. But in these cases antiX has a control center, in which the pipewire server can be deactivated easily with PPC’s fine switch living in the hardware section. (Just noticed this switch was removed again for some reason obviously; at least I’d intuitively search in the control center for something like that switch…)

                  Windows is like a submarine. Open a window and serious problems will start.

                  #127196
                  Member
                  blur13

                    Robin, glad you liked it. Easyeffects used to be called Pulseeffects, and I used it to get an equalizer with pulseaudio. Now its renamed to reflect the fact that its pipe/pulse. Its modular in its approach, so you will find that each module has its own dependencies. You found the dependency for the equalizer. The other “effects” have other dependencies. The dependencies listed in debian are just to get the program running, although it will be like an empty shell.

                    I stopped using it because I found it to be quite cpu intensive, at least on really old hardware.

                    My limited understanding is that having the equalizer flat will represent the music as it was meant to be heard when recorded, anything else is a distortion. So a good pair of studio headphones and a flat equalizer is the way I enjoy music these days.

                    #127205
                    Member
                    marcelocripe

                      Hello Robin and blur13.

                      Right now I’m facing an antiX 22 full update today, on a computer that isn’t mine.

                      Are you referring to this program https://github.com/wwmm/easyeffects?

                      “Easy Effects – This application was formerly known as PulseEffects, but it was renamed to Easy Effects after it started to use GTK4 and GStreamer usage was replaced by native PipeWire filters.”

                      The name “Easy Effects” is still not displayed in Synaptic, but I was able to find it under the name “PulseEffects”.

                      Description of “PulseEffects” in Synaptic:
                      “PulseEffects is an advanced system-wide equalizer that works with PulseAudio. It can apply system-wide effects to all running applications or selected apps.
                      PulseEffects also provides many pre-defined sound effects for PulseAudio input and output.”

                      – – – – –

                      Olá, Robin e blur13.

                      Neste momento eu estou de frente a um antiX 22 full atualizado no dia de hoje, em um computador que não é meu.

                      Vocês estão se referindo a este programa https://github.com/wwmm/easyeffects?

                      “Easy Effects – This application was formerly known as PulseEffects, but it was renamed to Easy Effects after it started to use GTK4 and GStreamer usage was replaced by native PipeWire filters.”

                      O nome “Easy Effects” ainda não é exibido no Synaptic, mas eu consegui encontrar com o nome “PulseEffects”.

                      Descrição do “PulseEffects” no Synaptic:
                      “PulseEffects is an advanced system-wide equalizer that works with PulseAudio. It can apply system-wide effects to all running application or selected apps.
                      PulseEffects also provides many pre-defined sound effects for PulseAudio input and output.”

                      #127209
                      Member
                      olsztyn

                        All this applies not only for studio level audio processing, as well it improves perceptible audio output on poor consumer level devices and PCs remarkably. Additionally you can compensate for different acoustic characteristics of the room you attending in. Once you have licked at it, you’ll never again want to do without. User has just to invest some time one-off to set up some presets (experiment with the sliders with caution, you can run into nonlinear distortion (clipping) from amplifier easily when doing to fiercely) which meet the characteristics of his personal equipment, his room, his ears. Then he can simply switch between these presets later and forget about all the details.

                        Thank you Robin for this in-depth analysis of audio reception. Greatly appreciated.
                        I am no expert in these matters but I consider myself sensitive to audio quality and fidelity, so this analysis provided me with a previously unknown to me aspect of fine tuning audio so I could maximize what I can do with my modest hardware.
                        I will certainly try to implement these additional audio components and test my hardware whether I can make the best of it However it looks to me it might require time to tune every individual audio set, it seems, separately…

                        My limited understanding is that having the equalizer flat will represent the music as it was meant to be heard when recorded, anything else is a distortion. So a good pair of studio headphones and a flat equalizer is the way I enjoy music these days.

                        This was (still is I think) my understanding too. Once the original recording is done in digital format and verified (on high quality equipment) by creators it is in fact the audio recording as meant to be, this digital form does not change (unlike analog) on the path to listener and it is the original authentic one and anything changed is just distortion of the original. So any equalizer adjustments are introducing a diversion to the original.
                        However I can see what Robin is saying, namely such originaal is hardly playing with fidelity as it should represent, due to poor playback hardware and an equalizer might improve that playback significantly so it sounds better.
                        However in such case how do we know what to adjust, unless we are very familiar with the audio and notice some high/low tones are missing or are weaker than should be, to approximate the original recording if our audio equipment plays without fidelity in the first place? The the most reliable solution would be indeed to play on high quality headphones with no equalizer adjustments.

                        In a word it seems a very interesting topic on Christmas Day, as we over here are about to attend a Christmas gathering with friends, where the host of the house will play on his grand piano Christmas carols and the rest of us will sing…

                        • This reply was modified 2 months ago by olsztyn.
                        • This reply was modified 2 months ago by olsztyn.

                        Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
                        http://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

                        #127211
                        Moderator
                        Brian Masinick

                          @olsztyn said: “In a word it seems a very interesting topic on Christmas Day, as we over here are about to attend a Christmas gathering with friends, where the host of the house will play on his grand piano Christmas carols and the rest of us will sing…”

                          Classic radio Christmas song: “…Although it’s been said, many times, many ways, Merry Christmas to you!”

                          --
                          Brian Masinick

                          #127213
                          Member
                          olsztyn

                            Classic radio Christmas song: “…Although it’s been said, many times, many ways, Merry Christmas to you!”

                            Merry Christmas to you as well and to all who are celebrating…
                            My recollection from 1978 is when I was invited to a house in Weiz, Austria, of my friend from Wiener Nonet, where similarly, Christmas carols were played and sung. Germany tradition originated many of these, such as ‘Stille Nacht’, etc…

                            Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
                            http://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

                            #127215
                            Moderator
                            Brian Masinick

                              “Stille Nacht” – that’s the German expression for the tune I know as “Silent Night” (Holy Night, all is calm, all is bright).

                              Side bar – have you ever seen the Christmas Comedy, “Love the Coopers”?

                              It’s a story of a family with many diverse, yet fairly common issues, a family that appears to be falling apart completely.
                              They argue, complain, fight, and the parents are on the verge of a divorce… yet in spite of the things about one another
                              that irritate each other, ultimately the Spirit of the Season returns, even to this “dysfunctional family”, and they
                              ultimately make their peace, and actually experience the love that is intended to permeate each of us when we freely
                              give ourselves to others, especially the family and friends we care about the most!

                              I think of this diverse community here. We are not a family in the legal sense of the word, and yet in technology circles,
                              as different as we are in terms of our countries of origin, our specific practices and beliefs, we do share a common bond
                              and interest in really cool and innovative, efficient, lean software.

                              In some ways we’re like that Cooper family too – we sometimes argue, to the point that some people split off and go in
                              different ways, and yet when things really matter, quite a few of us remain, bonded by a common desire to continue the
                              legacy of this classic, lean software that keeps one hand firmly linked to the past, in order to support aging software
                              and hardware, where on the other hand, attempts to forge forward, striking a carefully engineered balance between the
                              old and the new.

                              I hope that as the Gregorian Calendar 2023 ends and the year 2024 begins we will have the courage to have discussions
                              that risk separating out some, yet bond many of us with the continued hope of a long line of excellence in efficient
                              software design and implementation.

                              Let’s be free to disagree at times, yet ALWAYS do so in a civil, constructive manner that will lead to understanding
                              new possibilities while preserving as many of the efficiencies as we’ve always held close to us in everything we do.

                              Hopefully we will maintain that kind of dialogue and balance for years to come! Blessings to each and every person!

                              --
                              Brian Masinick

                              #127219
                              Member
                              olsztyn

                                “Stille Nacht” – that’s the German expression for the tune I know as “Silent Night” (Holy Night, all is calm, all is bright).

                                It is… But the translation to English does not even attempt to match the German text, even from the beginning. The original is:
                                Stille Nacht, heilige Nacht
                                Alles schläft; einsam wacht.

                                Side bar – have you ever seen the Christmas Comedy, “Love the Coopers”?

                                I have not. So perhaps I will try to watch it some day soon, if time permits…

                                Having digressed a bit from the original topic, I do want though to emphasize that I do appreciate the wealth of audio information from Robin, blur13 and many others.
                                The best testing ground for audio solutions is my wife’s music player in the kitchen, based on antiX 23. Audio equipment is Altec Lansing computer speakers with subwoofer from antiX 23 laptop. It plays non-stop and I do appreciate the wide range of sound frequencies conveyed by this audio system. Whether high tones or low ‘booms’ all seems to be played nicely and probably in linear fashion since no equalizer adjustments have been done. Although I have very limited audio knowledge therefore I may be completely wrong but just a few days ago I had a discussion with a friend of mine who used to be a DJ for a long time, who claimed that all tones can be conveyed at their proper levels even through relatively small speakers, if their amplitude (of such tones) is enhanced. Here I disagreed with him on that, convinced that to convey low tones at all you need larger speakers, as wave length defines this. I will need to study more this topic it seems…

                                Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
                                http://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

                                #127220
                                Moderator
                                Brian Masinick

                                  @olsztyn yes, in some ways we are diverging a bit from the primary topic, which is the arrival soon of antiX 23.1; however, though we’ve spoken about holiday traditions and other things, the sound quality that we establish and obtain, in my opinion, IS a very relevant topic to the antiX 23.1 release because there has been SO MUCH discussion about alsa versus pulse audio versus pipewire and various combinations of these things that I do believe that there are important things to mention AND iron out for the 23.1 release.

                                  I also think that we’ve honed in on utilizing Pipewire and it’s family of packages as the primary vehicle for delivering audio services; we’ve also provided ways to enable and disable these services; those who choose NOT to use them STILL have the ability to remove and/or replace them with whatever works best for their own purposes. As a rather small team of developers, though there are efforts to satisfy many people, it’s also obvious that we cannot possibly please 100% of the people, so the leadership has to decide on what’s best for them personally and what they’re willing to provide for the overall community; hopefully the final solutions will be helpful to as many people as possible and perhaps a few posts or even topics can be devoted to things that people can do as an alternative, and who knows, maybe one or two people can construct a respin of the primary effort that satisfies those things that our primary distribution cannot offer. With our snapshots, remastering tools and all of the other marvels that antiX DOES include, anyone who wants to build something else, either for just themselves or for a small group of people, or even spin off their own distribution, ought to be able to do so.

                                  Best wishes to all; we ought to have all the mechanisms in place to indirectly provide ways to recreate all kinds of variations, right now, and in the foreseeable future.

                                  --
                                  Brian Masinick

                                Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 468 total)
                                • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.