antiX-23 released.

Forum Forums News Announcements antiX-23 released.

  • This topic has 190 replies, 37 voices, and was last updated Oct 14-5:02 am by andfree.
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  • #116805
    Member
    PPC

      Just so we have all the information about the problems in antiX 23 and how to solve them (if it’s currently possible), all in one place.

      1- Impossibility to install to UEFI computers – the solution is stated in the Release notes – in short, update antiX Live before trying to install to a UEFI computer.
      2- Audio not working / no volumeicon in antiX Full – some users report this (including me)- the solution was found by abc-nix, and can be applied running a block of commands on the terminal (just copy and paste): https://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/pipewire-and-volume-icon-startup-proposed-solution-for-antix-23/page/2/#post-116668
      Maybe adding abc-nix’s instructions or the few lines of commands that fully automatize that solution could be added to the Release notes? (Yeah, usually no one reads those, I know)

      This were clearly the biggest problems, to the folks affected by those problems, but they are easy to fix…
      More reported problems, not as serious:

      3- on antiX using Runit init system, if UFW (the firewall) is enabled, it does not auto-start when the system restarts. Once again abc-nix found the cause (missing scripts that start/stop UFW) and how to solve it: https://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/firewall-does-not-remember-to-be-up-on-reboot/#post-116777
      4- (Unconfirmed by me): a user reported that playonlinux and Wine are not working in antiX-23 (over at https://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/wine-playonlinux-doesnt-work-correctly-after-upgrading-to-antix-23/#post-116744)
      5- Localization: Wallon reported some problems including that some fr language files are missing (on this thread). Also, the usb ejector script seems to be mostly unlocalized in fr and pt (I haven’t tested other languages).
      6- antiX Base includes “date and time” icon on the control centre, but does not include that script.

      After some more testing, and after solving lack of audio, I haven’t found any more problems myself, antiX Full sysv 64bits Live, runs like a dream (very minor localization problems in pt, that, in my case, do not affect the use of the OS, are just a small nuisance).

      P.

      • This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by PPC.
      • This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by PPC.
      #116813
      Moderator
      Brian Masinick

        @PPC nice job summarizing the configuration and descriptions of the remaining matters.

        No wonder I never “caught” any of these issues; with the exception of the audio, I don’t use most of the features in my every day use, plus I DID add one of the simple procedures that abc-nix had originally described (and has since improved, as you have too).

        I hope that all of these things will be resolved and/or further explained; your efforts are certainly contributing to that process.

        Regarding pipewire, pipewire-pulse, and wireplumber, it makes me wonder if a procedure could be including in the startup, at least for those who CHOOSE the pirewire solution to –

        1) Start pipewire
        2) Wait for the pipewire process to show as active, then
        3) Start pipewire-pulse and wait for the pipewire-pulse process to show as active, then
        4) Start the wireplumber process, then verify that all three of these processes are active.

        Instead of individuals having to add in various different sleep intervals in order to synchronize
        the starting of these processes, a well-designed startup process could handle this, and the waiting
        interval would depend on the amount of time each process takes to start and show up in the process
        table. That *should* be a reliable, reproducible way to do this, agreed?

        Of course, for those who DON’T want this, they can choose to configure their systems differently;
        if we’re in “kind spirits”, perhaps that can be configurable at installation time for those who
        are installing the system; for those who run live or Frugal, who knows, maybe there’s a way to
        account for that too; if so, it would be nice; then regardless of which audio infrastructure works
        on particular hardware, we’d have convenient, supportable tools; that’s if anyone has the time
        and knowledge to put this together.

        --
        Brian Masinick

        #116817
        Member
        Xunzi_23

          Nothing serious except for, in my case no sound on 3 devices, all from a series sold in thousands here
          in Germany, quite probably EU wide as big chain stores were selling. All have three sound devices.
          I have given up on pipewire.

          The most sensible comment I have seen recently came from abc-nix. Make pipewire an option for those users
          who want it.

          On devices where sound works it is hard to bear for those used to high quality audio and with a decent
          audio chain.

          Pipedream, pipewire to to solve all audio problems is just that a dream. It is highly yet another highly
          piece of crap from Red Hat IBM and highly invasive in that it grabs all system audio resourses.
          It is claimed it also puts many sound cards in the dark ages of low bitrate which means input and output
          conversion. If that is correct it would account for the quality loss.

          There is such a variety of hardware out in the real world, anyone claiming one pipe setup will fix all issues
          is blind to reality.

          The UEFI install issue sits between the ears of persons in front of devices, very difficult, probably impossible
          to fix.

          Similarly impossible is that some new users do not read anything then fail to setup drives in the install, later
          bitch they are invisible in antiX 23. Can not see drives, frightened to lose data. No Freakin Backup is my first
          postable thought. Again issue sits between the ears of persons in front of devices.

          Auto install of mint works fine, maybe, until it goes wrong then the crying starts. No Backup.

          Maybe the first installer screen should say if you have important data on your device, do a backup NOW.

          Then the persons concerned will post on DW antiX wants me to backup my data, installer is crap and
          frighteningly dangerous. Sorry a certain level of intelligence and ability to read is required to install and
          setup antiX. I know a reasonably intelligent 7 year old can do so, his dad lost a bet :-). I was somewhat
          unsure if the father would have done the job as quickly and efficiently.

          • This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by Xunzi_23.
          #116821
          Member
          PPC

            no sound on 3 devices

            Did you try abc’s procedure (or my mini-script to automatically implement that solution)?
            In my case, even restarting Icewm does make the volumeicon appear and sound to work, without the need to edit pipewire’s configuration.

            The last antiX-23 beta did come with alsa by default and pipewire installable from Package Installer, but unfortunatly, that required users to edit the startup file to enable it (ence, my GUI to enable/disable pipewire).

            If all affected computers have sound after implementing the fix, I would suggest the inverse of what you and abc suggest- have a correctly configured pipewire included out of the box, but also a way (from Package Installer or from the Control Centre) to completely remote it and have a pure alsa system.
            My pipewire toggle script can be morphed to a tool that completely removes pipewire / installs and configures pipewire – pleasing both crowds, and no technical skill, other than pressing a switch would be required.
            – Can anyone make available the correct steps to completely uninstall pipewire, so pure alsa sound works (and the other way around, the steps to install pipewire and everything it requires- no change would be needed to the pipewire package- the GUI would apply abc’s fix and edit the startup file to enable pipewire!
            The solution to this problem would be an updated version of the switcher GUI. The default advice would be: no sound? Disable pipewire and use pure alsa or re-enable it again and see if it’s fixed (hey, that seems to work with Xecure’s GUI to change network managers).

            Or antiX could come with just alsa, like it used to, and the updated script to install and configure pipewire.
            My suggestion? If sound works in all computers, after applying abc’s fix, keep pipewire. All those that want to go back to alsa for a better sound experience, that would be just the press of a switch away.

            I think that lack of beta testers (and we got 2 betas and some kind of rc1) is to blame for these sound problems. I think anticapitalista was just too stressed to make antiX-23 available, after a long beta testing period. None of the problems I mentioned are complex to solve (not the UEFI problem, and the lack of sound- if the fix works universally).

            Final comment:
            Not liking the way that pipewire audio sounds is a far cry from not having sound at all – I think both things happening at the same time to some users, kind of “cursed” pipewire in antiX. In my particular case (crappy columns), I do get louder audio, out of the box, which allows me to enjoy YouTube videos better on my desktop and netbook (I haven’t tested on my 32 bits laptop, that has really good sound columns). My vote? If a perfectly configured pipewire produces regular audio, keep it as default in future antiX versions. Most people that have crappy devices that require antiX to run do not usually have very good sound speakers (well, they can try plugging their computer to a TV…)

            P.

            • This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by PPC.
            #116848
            Member
            blur13

              Some cons of pipewire that make it unsuitable for (very) old hardware:
              1) launches three processes that use around 30 MiB of memory in total
              2) every application that plays sound will use more CPU, as pipewire consumes CPU cycles on top of those already consumed by the application itself.

              I think ALSA has reached a point of maturity in the sense that it works “out of the box” with no config files in the user space. I strongly advocate that the /etc/asound.conf be removed from the default setup. The equalizer and pre-amp devices that are added in that file are a workaround thats no longer needed. Removing those devices results in better and louder sound.

              Let me explain. The equalizer is by default set to 60 across all frequency bands. This results in distorted sound on every device I’ve tried. The solution is to set the equalizer to 40 across all frequency bands.

              The pre-amp option also results in distorted sound if set too high.

              If both those options are removed (by removing the config file) then you get crystal clear audio that just works. No messing about with the equalizer or pre-amp settings. The justification for including the pre-amp device was that on some laptops it was needed because the default sound was too quiet. Thats not been my experience. The oldest system I have is an Asus EEEpc from 2011, and the sound works better removing the /etc/asound.conf

              I think the default installation should be without that file. If the sound isnt loud enough, then the user can play around with pre-amp. Most videoplayers already include some sort of pre-amp. I think VLC will allow the user to play the volume at 150%, and mpv 125%.

              If you experience that the sound is “better” and louder when using pipewire or pulseaudio, then you will achieve the same result with ALSA if you remove that config file.

              (a restart is required after deleting/moving the config file for the changes to take effect)

              • This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by blur13.
              #116852
              Member
              calciumsodium

                I strongly advocate that the /etc/asound.conf be removed from the default setup.

                A great suggestion! I tried your tip on two different computers, a Dell and an HP. I also enlisted the help of my wife and daughter as test subjects. I played a youtube video using mpv with the /etc/asound.conf file present vs without the /etc/asound.conf file. With the Dell computer, my daughter did not hear a difference. But my wife noted that the sound was clearer and better in the test case without the /etc/asound.conf file. With the HP computer, both my daughter and my wife agreed that the sound was a lot better in the test case without the /etc/asound.conf file present.

                Because of these positive results, I will make the change in my other computer systems. Thank you for this suggestion.

                #116864
                Member
                PPC

                  @blur13 – many thanks for all that info, both on removing the .conf file for better sound in alsa, but also about possible downsides of using pipewire.

                  I hope that config file change (universally positive for all users that test it) is implemented in future versions of antiX.
                  I still get under 200mb of idle RAM, running antiX 23 Full, 64bits, modern kernel, in zzz-icewm. True that I’ve only tested on Live mode, I’ve not installed it, and Live mode does not run some processes by default (I’ll have to test allowing more processes). Sound seems to work fine, under pipewire, I did not notice a big spike on cpu use, on my atom single core netbook, that’s probably one of the slowest 64bits CPUs available (really, at some tasks, my 32bits laptop seems speedier!).
                  The fact that I think that it’s better for most users to have a correctly configured and fully working pipewire audio server by default – since most people just want audio to work. My reasoning is that it makes no sense at all, in a modern OS, like antiX is, installing something like Firefox (the most used Open Source Web Browser in the World) and… not having sound, and having to search on-line that there is a fix, called apulse, but… that it requires using the terminal or editing a .desktop file. Most ordinary computer users do not like doing that. Ordinary people like to install something from a GUI, launching said thing from an icon and have it working out of the box. A system that does not allow them do that just seems “buggy” or “for hackers only”.
                  I know that antiX is not meant to be used by the masses – but it should be used by the masses – millions upon millions of poor people (and those numbers are increasing by the day, unfortunately) can’t simply update their hardware or buy a newer computer. They are stuck with what they got. Many of those millions could and should be using antiX. This is part of the reason I’ve been trying for years to make antiX easier to use. I can’t compile a costume kernel not even if my life depended on it, but what I can is create simple GUIs or scripts that when included in this OS do make it easier to use for ordinary people that just want to use the computer. I’m a thinkerer, I like knowing how stuff works. I got that from my dad. But most people are not like that – if it does not work correctly then it’s a bad product, they think, instead of trying to “fix” it.

                  That’s my reasoning for liking the fact that antiX now comes with pipewire, for once, going with the tide and doing what most OSes are doing.
                  But I also like low resources usage and having nice sound… That’s why I’ll also understand if anticapitalista opts, in the future, to go back to Alsa by default. Even if that happens, I do think that something like a version of my toggle GUI should come included out of the box, allowing to install and correctly configure Pipewire (or remove it and go back to pure Alsa sound) without requiring any technical know-how from the users- most people do already think that having to go trough a control center/control panel is a painful experience (they are afraid to “break something”).

                  P.

                  #116870
                  Moderator
                  caprea

                    ok my humble opinion on the pipewire topic
                    At the beginning I was not a fan of adding pipewire per default to antiX23.But then I liked the compromise to deliver base without pipewire and full with it immediately.
                    It was also clear to me that pipewire sure is not able to solve all the problems of sound output, but in turn brings its own problems.
                    The fact that pipewire does not have so many experiences, the hardly tested integration in runit and that it is new for almost all of us anyway is aggravating.
                    Now it has happened and the first official release of antiX23-full was shipped with a not fully working sound output.
                    But,
                    since a few days I run antiX23-full including pipewire with the changes provided by abc-nix on laptop and PC (checked intensively).it runs 100%, without problems and I have never experienced such a comfortable and trouble-free handling of the sound output under linux.

                    In other words, pipewire has impressed me and I like it.
                    I also agree with PPC that, for various reasons, in normal computer use the quality of the sound output is not the main issue and if it is, base can be installed or pipewire get removed.

                    #116872
                    Member
                    entropyagent

                      This comment is perhaps more about Documentation than the O/S or software:

                      The release announcement (20230828) seems to suggest that the difference between Full and Base is Libreoffice and an extra kernel. I suspect this is not entirely accurate, and think there might be other users who share my disappointment at the lack of so many useful (and tiny) helper apps like the antiX-Updater. And Firefox. I support the idea of having different versions, but it is quite difficult to make an informed decision (about what to download) in the absence of information.

                      It’s quite likely that the release announcement was surrounded by a chaotic swirl of frenzied revisions, and a vast wall-of-text list of differences would slightly dilute its succinctness, but it has been weeks now. Perhaps this is a good use for the power of hypertext?

                      While briefly scanning the very-welcome antiX23 FAQ, the answer to the Q “How do I keep the system up-to-date” suggests the antiX Updater as an option. However, this (extremely desirable) feature seemed to be missing from my Base install.

                      Actually, while looking for the Updater in the release announcement, I just noticed that under “General tools” there are 2 mentions for Package Installer (which was in my Base) and a single mention for Repo Manager (not in my Base).

                      The announcement does have a heading “All versions” but it is perhaps a bit ambiguous about where the applicability of this heading ends.

                      #116873
                      Member
                      calciumsodium

                        Base …

                        Historically, as I understand it, base has been able to fit into a CD. But debian 12 bookworm takes so much more space footprint than the debian 11 bullseye. It took me a long time to pare down the antiX23 x32 base so that it could fit into a 700 mb CD. I had to gut out so much in order to fit into a CD. The antiX23 x32 base iso came in slightly less than 1 GB. I think anticapitalista tried his best to fit under 1 GB. I tried to get the antiX23 x64 to fit into a CD, but I could not do it without breaking the system.

                        Your post brings up a good point. Should we even have a base anymore because it does not fit into a CD anyway? You have to fit the iso into a DVD or USB in either case of the base or full.

                        • This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by calciumsodium.
                        #116877
                        Member
                        stevesr0

                          Re: pipewire vs ALSA.

                          I would be delighted to just use ALSA, but I have never mastered configuring it to work smoothly for my rather basic needs.

                          Specifically, I would have problems getting the sound to come out where I wanted it. I have never been concerned by issues about sound quality.

                          Pipewire represents an alternative that for me simply works.

                          The ongoing comparison of the two has stimulated me to plan to try to develop a more competent understanding of ALSA. Since Pipewire works so easily for me on my computers, at the moment I will keep using it.

                          The important thing is that so many people are working together on this forum to help all enjoy their listening experiences.

                          stevesr0

                          • This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by stevesr0.
                          • This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by stevesr0.
                          #116881
                          Member
                          PPC

                            On antiX Base:

                            I think it was Skidoo did once a list of all the differences between the base and the full versions.

                            Full disclosure: I never even ran antiX Base in Live mode.
                            That being said – once antiX Base no longer is able to fit on a CD-ROM, I do not think that it should cease to exist, but rather be even more bare-bones in a way and more complete in another… Let me explain: I think Base should come with all the small improvements Full has, like the updater, the date & time setting GUI, app-select, etc. They are essential to use antiX in a simple way. What I suggest is trimming down some packages:
                            – remove any advanced web browser (i.e. no seamonkey, no dillo, but keep antix viewer and Links)
                            – no e-mail client (i.e. no seamonkey nor Claws)
                            – no leafpad (geany is enough)
                            – no Celluloid (MPV is enough)
                            – no smtube (keep the cli version of youtube viewer)
                            – no GUI games (no dosbox, no mahjong)
                            no Pipewire!!!

                            This way, users could have a fully working version of antiX, but (almost) without any third party apps. And you would not even have to be a tech inclined user to use it. Just fire up Package Installer and install any Office Suite, Web Browser or E-mail client you want. Hell, if jwm and fluxbox and herbs were instalable from P.I. I would even say, just ship it with IceWM. The same basic principle applies: an OS with all it’s apps, but everything else the user has to select- in a way, even more freedom than the current Base offers, with, on one hand, a more fully working version of antiX, out of the box.
                            I know it can come as shock, me saying that a modern OS should come without a modern web browser. But some basic distros also go the same route. You can even have desktop files, in the internet menu saying “install Firefox-esr”, “install Claws e-mail client”, and in Office “install Libreoffice”. Those entries would just fire up a small script, sudo apt update && sudo apt install XXXX; check if the app was installed, and if so, delete the relevant .desktop file. Nice and easy to use… and very, very Basic. I guess that’s the point of that version of that .iso

                            Note: people would not be fully without access to the web xLinks2 is very basic, but allows to access to the forum (to troubleshoot any problem), and performing web searches, even reading many modern web pages. It can be made to run, by default an off-line web page, with links for antiXforum, antiX homepage, duckduckgo, etc.- maybe with a small text saying something like “press G to enter the web address you want to navigate to”

                            P.

                            • This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by PPC.
                            #116885
                            Member
                            blur13

                              One could argue to the contrary, that its nice with a “base” version without all the GUIs. I spent a lot of time hunting down and deleting the desktop files for the numerous GUIs that clutter up the menu. I think it should be viewed as two different version of the same OS that cater to two very different groups of people.

                              #116886
                              Forum Admin
                              anticapitalista

                                Some cons of pipewire that make it unsuitable for (very) old hardware:
                                1) launches three processes that use around 30 MiB of memory in total
                                2) every application that plays sound will use more CPU, as pipewire consumes CPU cycles on top of those already consumed by the application itself.

                                I think ALSA has reached a point of maturity in the sense that it works “out of the box” with no config files in the user space. I strongly advocate that the /etc/asound.conf be removed from the default setup. The equalizer and pre-amp devices that are added in that file are a workaround thats no longer needed. Removing those devices results in better and louder sound.

                                Let me explain. The equalizer is by default set to 60 across all frequency bands. This results in distorted sound on every device I’ve tried. The solution is to set the equalizer to 40 across all frequency bands.

                                The pre-amp option also results in distorted sound if set too high.

                                If both those options are removed (by removing the config file) then you get crystal clear audio that just works. No messing about with the equalizer or pre-amp settings. The justification for including the pre-amp device was that on some laptops it was needed because the default sound was too quiet. Thats not been my experience. The oldest system I have is an Asus EEEpc from 2011, and the sound works better removing the /etc/asound.conf

                                I think the default installation should be without that file. If the sound isnt loud enough, then the user can play around with pre-amp. Most videoplayers already include some sort of pre-amp. I think VLC will allow the user to play the volume at 150%, and mpv 125%.

                                If you experience that the sound is “better” and louder when using pipewire or pulseaudio, then you will achieve the same result with ALSA if you remove that config file.

                                (a restart is required after deleting/moving the config file for the changes to take effect)

                                Better to do

                                sudo apt purge alsamixer-equalizer-antix

                                Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

                                antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

                                #116887
                                Member
                                PPC

                                  One could argue to the contrary

                                  It’s a fact of life, you can’t please everyone. I was just talking, offering a new perspective about Base. As always, anticapitalista chooses what each version of antiX includes.
                                  I do not envy that task (nor the work of creating so many isos. Someone should build him a statue, or something!!! 🙂

                                  P.

                                  • This reply was modified 8 months, 1 week ago by PPC.
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