Bloat

  • This topic has 38 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated Feb 3-6:55 am by PDP-8.
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  • #65868
    Member
    LikkMii
      #65869
      Anonymous

        @LikkMii,
        The version in antiX-21 of mirage is 0.11.1 from gitlab website not sourceforge.
        mirage

        #65871
        Member
        marcelocripe

          So, to you, what is bloat and more importantly why and how.

          After reading the machine translation in 3 different internet translators of the previous comments and opinions, I am still trying to understand what is the “bloat” that we find so much of in the texts in this forum and other media with MX Linux and antiX user group.

          When I started using antiX 19.2 at the end of May 2020, I remember that in a thread I had asked (erroneously) why so many desktop options. At that time, I did not yet know each of the desktop options. When I tested each of the available options and compared the idle RAM consumption and how a computer with few resources behaves with each of the desktops, that was when I began to understand the purpose and especially the importance of each of the options. That is, when I did not know or did not know the usefulness (or what it is for), I could not “see” the real value, when I got to understand I started to value having options available much more than not having any options at all.

          Before getting here on the forum and getting to know antiX, I tested several GNU/Linux distributions, I found distributions that have few application programs available on their ISO with sizes between 2 to 3 GB. This compares to the full antiX ISO of about 1.3 GB which is full of application programs, with many solutions with both a text interface (CLI) and a graphical interface (GUI). If a computer is very limited in resources (processing and RAM) it can use the CLI programs very well with a new, updated, fast, light and beautiful operating system.

          For those who think antiX is ugly, certainly they have never changed the wallpaper or used one of the many themes available. We have options, resources, solutions for different situations and needs. Almost everything a user needs or will need is available, if not using the program, does not require processing or consume RAM memory. It is a flexible operating system, the user doesn’t have to “suffer” to make the programs work. If you complain that the menu is full, then you must be using the wrong ISO, use the base ISO, if the base is too “bloated”, then use the “net” or the “core”, but if you don’t know how to make things work, don’t say that antiX sucks, because that is not true.

          I asked a colleague that when he goes to install Windows 10, not to install anything else and capture the image of the hard disk space consumption after installation, unfortunately he sent me a picture which is in a bad quality, but I managed to write down the data I wanted to have for comparison purposes. Windows 10 Home Single Language after installation consumes the hard disk space of 18.3 GB (without having anything installed), compared to antiX-19.4 64-bit full consumes the hard disk space of 3.8 GB.

          “The bloated menus” …, well, people need to understand that the more programs installed, the more menus they will have and if they don’t like navigating through the menus, just use one of the various suggestions presented earlier or use AppSelect.

          “There are programs I don’t use”, you don’t use it because you haven’t needed it yet, if one day you need it you will start to give more value to it. An example of this is antiX WiFi Switch, before its existence, to switch use from Connman network manager to Ceni and vice versa, you had to edit settings files and not everyone could do what was necessary for everything to work properly. With antiX WiFi Switch you just click buttons in a super light and easy to use GUI. The same goes for all other programs. It doesn’t make any sense to remove what works well and offers facilities for most users. It makes more sense to replace it with a better option when something can be improved, even if it takes a while to adjust (I refer to zzzFM, slimski, Debinstaller, etc.). The programs made by the antiX community have a lot of value, they are thought to be fast and light, they are contrary to what other distributions are doing, with each new program they demand a lot more processing and RAM memory, putting into practice the programmed obsolescence of technology. The programs made by the antiX community when they are well tested and developed surpass many others that propose to do something and don’t manage to do it well.

          I believe that we need to think collectively and not individually.

          I thank all the people that help antiX to be better every day and the creator.

          marcelocripe
          (Original text in Brazilian Portuguese)

          – – – – –

          So, to you, what is bloat and more importantly why and how.

          Depois de ler a tradução automática em 3 tradutores diferentes da internet dos comentários e opiniões anteriores, eu continuo tentando compreender qual é o “inchaço” de que tanto encontramos nos textos neste fórum e em outros meios de comunicação com grupo de usuários MX Linux e antiX.

          Quando eu comecei a utilizar o antiX 19.2 no final do mês maio de 2020, eu me lembro que em um tópico eu havia perguntado (erroneamente) porque tantas opções de área de trabalho. Naquele momento, eu ainda não conhecia cada uma das opções de áreas de trabalho. Quando eu testei cada uma das opções disponíveis e comparei o consumo de memória RAM ociosa e como um computador com poucos recursos se comporta com cada uma das áreas de trabalho, foi quando eu comecei a entender a finalidade e principalmente a importância de cada uma das opções. Ou seja, quando eu não conhecia ou não sabia da utilidade (ou para que serve), eu não conseguia “enxergar” o real valor, quando eu consegui entender passei a dar muito mais valor por ter opções disponíveis do que não ter as opção alguma.

          Antes de chegar aqui no fórum e de conhecer o antiX, eu testei várias distribuições GNU/Linux, encontrei distribuições que possuem poucos programas aplicativos disponíveis na sua ISO com tamanhos entre 2 a 3 GB. Comparando com a ISO full do antiX com cerca de 1,3 GB que é repleta de programas aplicativos, com várias soluções com interface de texto (CLI) e com interface gráfica (GUI). Se um computador for muito limitado em recursos (processamento e memória RAM) poderá utilizar muito bem os programas CLI com um sistema operacional novo, atualizado, rápido, leve e bonito.

          Para quem acha o antiX feio, certamente nunca trocou o papel de parede ou usou um dos vários temas disponíveis. Temos opções, recursos, soluções para diferentes situações e necessidades. Quase tudo que um usuário precisa ou precisará está disponível, se não usar o programa, não exige processamento ou consome memória RAM. É um sistema operacional flexível, o usuário não precisa “sofrer” para fazer os programas funcionarem. Quem reclama que o menu está cheio, então deve estar usando a ISO errada, use a ISO base, se a base estiver muito “inchada”, então use a “net” ou a “core”, mas se não souber fazer as coisas funcionarem , não diga que o antiX não presta, porque isso não é verdade.

          Eu pedi a um colega que quando fosse instalar Windows 10, não instalasse mais nada e capturasse a imagem do consumo de espaço em disco rígido após a instalação, infelizmente ele me enviou uma foto que está em uma qualidade ruim, mas eu consegui anotar o dado que eu queria ter para efeito de comparação. O Windows 10 Home Single Language após a instalação consome o espaço em disco rígido de 18,3 GB (sem ter nada instalado), comparando com o antiX-19.4 64 bits full consome o espaço em disco rígido de 3,8 GB.

          “Os menus inchados” …, bom, as pessoas precisam compreender que quanto mais programas instalados, mais menus terão e se não gostam de navegar pelos menus, basta utilizar uma das várias sugestões apresentadas anteriormente ou usar o AppSelect.

          “Tem programas que eu não uso”, você não usa porque ainda não precisou, se um dia precisar começará a dar mais valor para ele. Um exemplo disso é o antiX WiFi Switch, antes de sua existência, para alternar o uso do gerenciador de rede Connman para o Ceni e vice-versa, era preciso editar arquivos de configurações e nem todos conseguiam fazer o que era necessário para tudo funcionar corretamente. Com o antiX WiFi Switch é só clicar em botões em uma GUI super leve e fácil de usar. O mesmo vale para todos os outros programas. Não faz sentido algum retirar o que funciona bem e oferece facilidades para a maioria dos usuários. Faz mais sentido substituir por outra opção melhor quando algo pode ser melhorado, mesmo que isso leve um tempo para ser ajustado (refiro-me ao zzzFM, slimski, Debinstaller, etc). Os programas feitos pela comunidade antiX possuem muito valor, são pensados para serem rápidos e leves, são contrários ao que as outras distribuições estão fazendo, a cada novo programa exigem muito mais processamento e memória RAM, colocando em prática a obsolência programada de tecnologia. Os programas feitos pela comunidade antiX quando são bem testados e desenvolvidos superam vários outros que se propõe a fazer algo e não conseguem fazer bem feito.

          Eu acredito que precisamos pensar de forma coletiva e não individual.

          Eu agradeço a todas as pessoas que ajudam o antiX a ser cada dia melhor e ao criador.

          marcelocripe
          (Texto original em Português do Brasil)

          #65872
          Anonymous

            exactly …… @marcelocripe.
            you wrote:

            I believe that we need to think collectively and not individually.
            I thank all the people that help antiX to be better every day and the creator.

            antiX is not a fits all by any definition.

            I do not think of it as a one size fits all …. but an alternative as a free, functional out of the box
            OS that is low on resources that is useful for the majority on old and new hardware.

            we work together and try.

            #65880
            Member
            decaturIBM8215

              Hmm, I wouldn’t have thought of Antix and Bloat in the same sentence, although my experience thus far is only with 19.4.

              My gut interpretation of ‘bloat’ was a healthy piece of hardware being overwhelmed by needy software: the dual-core, 4gb ram machine required to browse the web previously cited. Coming to antiX from a Lubuntu experience (which is supposed to target the low-resource audience), this definitely uses less space & is ‘way more sprightly. . .

              Recently was donated an older HP machine- discovered it still had it’s original image of Windows 6- the much maligned Vista. The curious person in me installed it, the inner 5-year old likes the start-up tune. The adult then spent a lot of time removing all the stuff-not-Windows, and trying to make it safe to use in the modern world. There was a LOT of advertising, a person forgets if you haven’t been living in a Redmond environment for a while. . .anywways, here’s a snapshot of partitions with Vista after effort. . . and Antix 19.4 full mostly as-is from install. . .

              if someone’s making a ‘bloat’ argument against Antix. . . it’s just not my experience.

              Hope all’s well by you all. . .

              Attachments:
              #65912
              Member
              stevesr0

                For me, “bloat” is the perception that there are too many things in the distro AND it isn’t easy to “prune” it down. Alternatively, I might feel a system has too much if the disc is too full and it seems to run slow, but that is obviously a different problem calling for a different solution.

                I have one system with (what I consider) a minimal Antix sid install and two “full” Antix installs (one 17 and one 19). I like them all, and don’t consider any of them bloated, although there are many apps on the full installs that I haven’t used.

                But I am a permanent noobie <g>.

                stevesr0

                #65949
                Member
                mikey777

                  I’m really surprised to see a discussion on this forum about “antiX-bloat”, and that there are some who say this is a problem with antiX!

                  Frankly, to say that antiX suffers from real bloat is nonsense: those that make that kind of comment are obviously not aware of what antiX has to offer.

                  Why do I say that? Because there’s so much choice available with antiX: from a minimalist system that you build yourself (i.e. core or net editions), to one where the main basic apps are prepackaged (base edition), and finally onto the full-edition which has everything you might need for a rainy day. So, antiX caters for a wide range of needs – something for everyone.

                  Maybe what I’ve just said is a bit oversimplistic. There is of course the issue of superfluous files & their removal, which has already been discussed on this forum (e.g. language packages that are not needed, etc), but I think that’s more in the category of fine-tuning rather than bloat.

                  • This reply was modified 2 years, 7 months ago by mikey777.
                  • This reply was modified 2 years, 7 months ago by mikey777.
                  • This reply was modified 2 years, 7 months ago by mikey777.

                  ▪ 32-bit antix19.4-core (SysV init)+LXDE legacy install on :
                  - (2011) Samsung NP-N145 Plus (JP04UK) – single-core CPU Intel Atom N455@1.66GHz, 2GB RAM, integrated graphics.
                  ▪ 64-bit antix21-base (SysV init)+LXDE legacy install on:
                  - (2008) Asus X71Q (7SC002) – dual CPU Intel T3200@2.0GHz, 4GB RAM. Intel Mobile 4 Series, integrated graphics
                  - (2007) Packard Bell Easynote MX37 (ALP-Ajax C3) – dual CPU Intel T2310@1.46GHz, 2GB RAM. SiS Graphics

                  #66002
                  Moderator
                  Brian Masinick

                    @mikey777: As I was thinking about the discussion here, I was thinking almost exactly what you just wrote.

                    Our antiX distribution is ¨lean and mean¨, but it also excels in offering ¨finely tuned”choices. Thank you for your concise comment!

                    --
                    Brian Masinick

                    #69066
                    Member
                    radonrose

                      Sorry for bumping this two months later, but I’ve seen anticapitalista mentioning bloat in the MX fora, and this is a thread with a deeper analysis of it.

                      To me, bloat also has to do with the inability to remove something. Bloated Android phones are a good example, because a lot of the time they will forbid you uninstall certain apps. But inability doesn’t equal forbiddance. Imagine if you installed Linux Mint, and then you modified it so extensively that you ended up with antiX. It’s possible, but I would call most users unable to do it. So, if antiX was the perfect system, Mint would be bloated. But since a desktop system can be so much, one can’t really perfect it. @stevesr0 has got a huge point here.

                      If you have both Thunderbird and Evolution installed, that’s not bloat. If you have Thunderbird installed, and you won’t let me remove it after I install Evolution, that’s bloat. And that’s HDD space, or at worst some configuration issues; it becomes even worse when we’re talking about consant CPU and/or RAM usage.

                      I recently tested MX 21 KDE, and the first thing I did was install LXQt. It looked and worked 99% like all my previous KDE systems (something I hadn’t achieved with neither LXDE nor XFCE), which made me not only realize KDE is not my favorite DE after all, but also call it bloated.

                      #72181
                      Member
                      oparun

                        The very meaning of bloat differs from distro to distro. Some, that call themselves “AIO packages” (usually user – modified experiences with a bunch of software) can be a wholesome experience (if the software was chosen correctly) and some, despite the fact of being stripped down, can be bloated with several software solutions. For example, Absolute Linux is a bloat mess, that has several video players, several file managers etc. Antix is also bloated, but in its own unique way. This very distro doesn’t have its main wm-edition, but it comes with a bunch of them pre-packaged. I bet, that majority of users doesn’t use herbstluftwm. Why do they need it? The same goes for file managers :rox and spacefm (now forked). Why? And the selection of software for “light distro”: mirage instead of gpicview, mtpaint instead of azpainter (or lazpaint), celluloid (really?!!), xmms (that doesn’t support opus), etc.

                        #72184
                        Member
                        ModdIt

                          In a couple of words choice and ease of maintenance, the included desktops are supported.

                          If it irritates you on your installation remove what you want, you also failed to note that
                          antix comes in everything from a barebones edition to a full setup which will satisfy most needs.

                          It is not like a system d distro where removing a single application will take down your entire desktop.

                          You are also not forced to use antiX. Stop trying to wind us up Bye

                          • This reply was modified 2 years, 4 months ago by ModdIt.
                          #72186
                          Member
                          oparun

                            f it irritates

                            Stop trying to wind us up Bye

                            Wow, that escalated quickly. Are you having a bad day? Or I’m not having the right to speak freely about potential issues? I’ve been a Linux user since Ubuntu 7.10 and this is the first time I’m getting such a type of response and from a moderator. And i know about several types of isos. I was talking mainly about your base version of iso.

                            • This reply was modified 2 years, 4 months ago by oparun.
                            #72192
                            Member
                            PPC

                              @oparun : you revived a thread that was “dead” for about a month an a half, for no good reason that alone is not the usual forum etiquette (but not against the rules, as far as I know).

                              You also made some valid points (perhaps better served in a new thread) about antiX.
                              I’m not a moderator, nor a Developer, but I was puzzled because you, in the same post called antix bloated but seemed to criticize it because “This very distro doesn’t have its main wm-edition”… It can be argued that having 3 floating window managers + 1 tiling window manager, 3 file managers (rox filer, spacefm/zzzfm, midnight commander), several internet browsers (firefox-esr, dillo, links and now seamonkey). 2 mail clients (antix 21 comes with claws mail + seamonkey e-mail client), 1 video player (MPV) and one nice looking front end for it (celluloid) can see like bloat at first sight- and may be technically considered bloat… But… All those options added up are way lighter than any Desktop environment, and give so many options, that cater to all tastes- most people use IceWM, I use Fluxbox, anticapitalista uses Herbs… I’m a minimalist, but I enjoy watching old movies in Celluloid. My desktops are powerfull enough to run Firefox and firefox-esr as main browsers, but there are users that still use links to access the web in very old computers).

                              The rest of the default apps are the result of the dev team’s choices- for example, I would go with deadbeef as default audio player- but probably xmms runs better or very old 386 computers, etc… I may disagree with some choices of default apps (for example- having rox filer as default file manager probably made more users try antiX and run away crying than any other reason)- probably spacefm/zzzfm would be better default choices- but- the point is- sometimes rox works and the other fm don’t- for some obscure reasons I was able to mount and access stuff on rox, that I was unable to do using other file managers…
                              antiX may seem bloated, because it has so many redundant applications… But it’s by design- so users with 20 year old computers can still use antiX, but also, so can users of modern computers…

                              Sorry for the long post, I was just trying to give some context on why antix is the way it is (in my humble opinion)

                              #72211
                              Forum Admin
                              rokytnji

                                So, to you, what is bloat and more importantly why and how.

                                Just a gentle reminder. Any post covering the above questions belongs here.

                                Have at it.

                                Sometimes I drive a crooked road to get my mind straight.
                                I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute off it.
                                Motorcycle racing is rocket science.

                                Linux Registered User # 475019
                                How to Search for AntiX solutions to your problems

                                #72217
                                Moderator
                                BobC

                                  Oparun, Yes, that’s the way to go at the problem (if it is one). Identify and question what you might consider bloat..

                                  Herb: The Distro’s developers use it! Some like Vim, too. That’s it in a nutshell. I admit I can’t use either package myself, but are you going to tell the people doing the work they can’t have their tools?

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