Can we have a thread on here for words that are troublesome?

Forum Forums antiX-development Translations Can we have a thread on here for words that are troublesome?

  • This topic has 5 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated Apr 26-2:16 pm by Brian Masinick.
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  • #82043
    Anonymous

    Can we have a thread for words/topics that are needed and confusing for the other
    languages on here? Like for certain phrases/words that are hard for the online translators to get?

    #82055
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    LikkMii
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    Antidisestablishmentarianism comes to mind 😉

    #82059
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    marcelocripe
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    Can we have a thread for words/topics that are needed and confusing for the other
    languages ​​on here? Like for certain phrases/words that are hard for the online translators to get?

    Hello Linuxdaddy.

    I thank you for bringing this topic is very important.
    There are indeed several terms or phrases that cause many difficulties for translators, especially for me, who am not a speaker or a scholar of the English language, I rely exclusively on automatic translations to build texts into Brazilian Portuguese to be used in the antiX and MX Linux (I’m a volunteer translator on both distributions). I know several Brazilians who are bilingual, who speak English very well, speak and write as if it were their native language, but none of them are willing to work without receiving money for a job as a translator.

    I bring here, in full, Wallon’s words, they are from some examples he cited in the MX Linux forum that are relevant to this topic. Note that Wallon’s words and mine belong in the context of a long conversation between translators and developers. For clarity, read the 6+ pages of conversations from the MX Linux forum thread.

    Wallon wrote:
    Dear fehlix, Dear ravrett,
    You can check with anticapitalista that Marcelocripe and I are serious about doing the translations.

    Marcelocripe and I can directly edit the translations in the scripts to help the busy developers. We can also do some tests to check that the translations look good on the screen. Sometimes we forget to put a line break, a space in front of or after the string or we didn’t receive instructions from the developer for the translation in Transifex. That is why testing is important in the local language.

    Marcelocripe and I also insist on a better collaboration between developers and translators. We should not stay behind walls and keep everything separate. You are a translator and you have nothing to say… That’s not the way to move forward with programmes.

    Translators can also bring added value to the programmer who has his head down in the handlebars of his bike. This is understandable, for the developer, his program must work…
    Example;
    – The developer asks technical questions in his program that nobody understands. The translators will ask for explanations. Often, the translators will not translate but interpret.
    – The developer uses an English word that can be translated 10 different ways into another language. The word “Times” in English can be translated into French as “heure”, “durée”, “moment”…
    – The developer asks to answer “Yes / no” at the end of a question. The translators will ask if the Yes or No can be translated into the local language. One developer even admitted to us that he had forgotten to take the local values to run his program.

    So we hope for a better collaboration and don’t hesitate to come back to us so that we don’t leave the translations as they are for the moment.

    Best regards,
    Wallon

    marcelocripe wrote:
    Wallon was able to perfectly synthesize our experiences involving translations.

    The word “Time” is also problematic for us to translate to pt_BR, as there are several possible translations and only one will be correct in the context. Another example: “browser”, is the “browser” of what? Is it the “file browser”, “web browser” or “folder browser”?

    I’ve read here on this forum “anything we use DeepL’s translation”, but the machine doesn’t have the ability to interpret or try to guess what the sentence really means or where it will be used. The use of machine translations will discredit MX Linux in the eyes of the natives of the language and who loses the most with this are the GNU/Linux operating systems.

    We translators have no way of guessing what can or cannot be translated, that’s why I cite the voluntary work of Robin.antiX, he has experience translating and developing programs, in his programs he always uses comments and always that he believes something might be misunderstood in another language, he always makes comments containing examples. Even though I don’t know how to read or write in the English language, I am able to make richly detailed adaptations of Robin’s programs, due to the great effort he puts into ensuring that communication is the best possible.

    An excellent program where people don’t understand it, it just doesn’t have any use, because people can’t operate because they don’t understand it.

    The above sentence seems to be obvious, but it is not what we find in practice, we find the use of texts without beginning, middle and end, ambiguous sentences, sentences with double interpretation, etc.

    We want to help and hope this can be noticed and understood.

    – – – – –

    Can we have a thread for words/topics that are needed and confusing for the other
    languages on here? Like for certain phrases/words that are hard for the online translators to get?

    Olá Linuxdaddy.

    Eu agradeço a você por trazer este tema é muito importante.
    Existem sim vários termos ou frases que causam muitas dificuldades para os tradutores, em especial para mim que não sou um falante ou um estudioso do Idioma Inglês, eu dependo exclusivamente das traduções automáticas para construir os textos para o idioma Português do Brasil para serem utilizados no antiX e no MX Linux (eu sou tradutor voluntário em ambas as distribuições). Eu conheço vários Brasileiros que são bilíngues, que dominam muito bem o idioma Inglês, falam e escrevem como se fosse o seu idioma nativo, mas nenhum deles estão dispostos a trabalharem sem receber dinheiro por um trabalho de tradutor.

    Eu trago aqui, na íntegra as palavras do Wallon, são de alguns exemplos que ele citou no fórum do MX Linux que são relevantes a este tópico. Atentem-se ao fato de que as palavras do Wallon e as minhas pertencem a um contexto de uma longa conversa entre os tradutores e os desenvolvedores. Para maior clareza, leiam as mais de 6 páginas de conversas do tópico do fórum do MX Linux.

    Wallon wrote:
    Dear fehlix, Dear ravrett,
    You can check with anticapitalista that Marcelocripe and I are serious about doing the translations.

    Marcelocripe and I can directly edit the translations in the scripts to help the busy developers. We can also do some tests to check that the translations look good on the screen. Sometimes we forget to put a line break, a space in front of or after the string or we didn’t receive instructions from the developer for the translation in Transifex. That is why testing is important in the local language.

    Marcelocripe and I also insist on a better collaboration between developers and translators. We should not stay behind walls and keep everything separate. You are a translator and you have nothing to say… That’s not the way to move forward with programmes.

    Translators can also bring added value to the programmer who has his head down in the handlebars of his bike. This is understandable, for the developer, his program must work…
    Example;
    – The developer asks technical questions in his program that nobody understands. The translators will ask for explanations. Often, the translators will not translate but interpret.
    – The developer uses an English word that can be translated 10 different ways into another language. The word “Times” in English can be translated into French as “heure”, “durée”, “moment”…
    – The developer asks to answer “Yes / no” at the end of a question. The translators will ask if the Yes or No can be translated into the local language. One developer even admitted to us that he had forgotten to take the local values to run his program.

    So we hope for a better collaboration and don’t hesitate to come back to us so that we don’t leave the translations as they are for the moment.

    Best regards,
    Wallon

    marcelocripe wrote:

    (O texto em idioma Inglês da tradução automática)

    – – – – –

    O Wallon conseguiu sintetizar perfeitamente as nossas experiências envolvendo as traduções.

    A palavra “Time” também é problemática para traduzirmos para pt_BR, pois existem várias possibilidades de traduções e apenas uma será a correta no contexto. Outro exemplo: “browser”, é o “browser” do quê? Trata-se do “file browser”, “web browser” ou “folder browser”?

    Eu já li aqui neste fórum “qualquer coisa a gente utiliza a tradução do DeepL”, mas a máquina não possui a capacidade de interpretação ou de tentar adivinhar o que a frase realmente quer dizer ou onde será utilizada. A utilização das traduções automáticas irão descredibilizar o MX Linux aos olhos dos nativos do idioma e quem mais perde com isso são os sistemas operacionais GNU/Linux.

    Nós tradutores, não temos como adivinhar o que pode ou o que não pode ser traduzido, por isso eu cito o trabalho voluntário do Robin.antiX, ele possui experiência traduzindo e no desenvolvimento de programas, em seus programas ele sempre utiliza os comentários e sempre que ele acredita que algo pode ser mal compreendido em outro idioma, ele sempre faz comentários contendo exemplos. Mesmo eu não sabendo ler ou escrever em idioma Inglês, eu consigo fazer adaptações ricas em detalhes dos programas do Robin, devido ao grande esforço que ele dedica em garantir que a comunicação seja a melhor possível.

    Um programa excelente onde as pessoas não o compreendem,simplesmente não possui utilidade, pois as pessoas não conseguem operar por não o compreenderem.

    A frase acima parece ser óbvia, mas não é o que encontramos na prática, encontramos o uso de textos sem começo meio e fim, frases ambíguas, frases com dupla interpretação, etc.

    Nós queremos ajudar e espero que isto possa ser percebido e compreendido.

    #82061
    Member
    marcelocripe
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    In addition to the words “time” and “browser” that there are several ways to translate them into Brazilian Portuguese, the sentences in English that do not have the verb are the most difficult, as I have difficulties to identify in the automatic translation if the action is past (if the action has already taken place), present (if the action is taking place) or if it is future (if the action will take place). My language needs the verb tense to define the verb agreement of the other words in the sentence. We also have the nominal agreement, which differentiates the masculine gender from the feminine.

    For example:
    The English sentence starts with a variable “%1” that will be replaced by something, if the programmer doesn’t tell what will be displayed instead of “%1”, I don’t know if I should start the sentence with the article “A” ( the article “A” starts the sentence when the next word is feminine) or “O” (the article “O” starts the sentence when the next word is masculine).

    Original sentence:
    %1 requires password.

    original sentence:
    %1 requires password.

    If “%1” will be replaced by the name “antiX”:

    O “antiX” requer uma senha de acesso.

    We don’t start sentences with lowercase letters, this is a spelling rule in my language.

    If “%1” will be replaced by the name “WiFi”:

    A “rede sem fio” requer uma senha de acesso.

    If “%1” will be replaced by the name “access point”:

    O “ponto de acesso” requer uma senha de acesso.

    If the programmer includes a comment stating what “%1” will be replaced, translators are instructed to get it right rather than wrong.

    It has occurred to me several times that I see my texts on the programs and say, “Wow! Is this where the text appears in the GUI?!” or “How can I guess this if in Transifex the programmer did not include this information?” or “In this context, I would have adapted the phrase otherwise.”, etc.

    Linuxdaddy, as many antiX programmers are not native speakers of English, we need proofreaders in English, we need at least one native of each language in Transifex contribs and GitLab contribs, this includes English and its variants , speakers of en_GB are not required to see texts in en_US and vice versa. Each native of their respective language can help make antiX much more understandable.

    – – – – –

    Além das palavras “time” e “browser” que existem várias formas de serem traduzidas para o idioma Português do Brasil, as frases em idioma Inglês que não possuem o verbo, são as mais difíceis, pois eu tenho dificuldades para identificar na tradução automática se a ação é passada (se já ocorreu a ação), presente (se está ocorrendo a ação) ou se é futuro (se irá ocorrer a ação). O meu idioma precisa do tempo do verbo para definir a concordância verbal das outras palavras na frase. Temos ainda a concordância nominal, onde diferencia o gênero masculino do feminino.

    Por exemplo:
    A frase em inglês começa por uma variável “%1” que será substituída por alguma coisa, se o programador não informar o que será exibido no lugar de “%1”, eu não sei se devo iniciar a frase com o artigo “A” (o artigo “A” inicia a frase quando a palavra seguinte é feminina) ou “O” (o artigo “O” inicia a frase quando a palavra seguinte é masculina).

    Frase original:
    %1 requires a password.

    Se “%1” será substituído pelo nome “antiX”:

    O “antiX” requer uma senha de acesso.

    Não iniciamos as frases com letras minúsculas, esta é uma regra ortográfica em meu idioma.

    Se “%1” será substituído pelo nome “WiFi”:

    A “rede sem fio” requer uma senha de acesso.

    Se “%1” será substituído pelo nome “access point”:

    O “ponto de acesso” requer uma senha de acesso.

    Se o programador inclui um comentário informando o que “%1” será substituído, os tradutores são instruídos a acertar mais do que errar.

    Comigo já ocorreu várias vezes de eu ver os meus textos nos programas e dizer, “Nossa! É aqui que o texto aparece na interface gráfica?!” ou “Como eu posso adivinhar isso se no Transifex o programador não incluiu esta informação?” ou “Neste contexto, eu teria adaptado a frase de outra forma.”, etc.

    Linuxdaddy, como vários programadores do antiX não são nativos do idioma Inglês, nós precisamos de revisores dos textos em idioma inglês, precisamos ao menos de um nativo de cada idioma no Transifex contribs e no GitLab contribs, isso inclui o idioma inglês e das suas variantes, os falantes do en_GB não são obrigados a ver textos em en_US e vice-versa. Cada nativo do seu respectivo idioma pode ajudar a tornar o antiX muito mais compreensível.

    #82087
    Anonymous
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    Thank you Marcelocripe for the detailed explanations on certain words. I think that internet browser
    can be used in place of web browser for example.

    #82099
    Moderator
    Brian Masinick
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    Internet, Web, and Worldwide Web are often used to describe roughly the same thing,

    In the most technical sense they are not 100% identical, yet in the practical discussion that takes place here, it’s fine to use any of these terms. At least one ‘meaning’ for each of them describes the same thing, the network we use with antiX.

    Brian Masinick

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