- This topic has 17 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated Mar 18-4:11 pm by Brian Masinick.
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Sondro
Hi new to antiX,
On Windows I run Clear Linux on VMs like WSL2 for speed.
In April the devs announced they were scaling back desktop (outside of optimizations) and hope the community would take over package management, etc: https://community.clearlinux.org/t/changes-coming-to-clear-linux-direction/4337
Is there or would it be feasible for a modular Clear Linux package on antiX? Their installers and package management are known to be poor.
From what I’ve read, the biggest issue is how they have a unique file structure separating the system and user files: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/02/linux-distro-review-intels-own-clear-linux-os/
AMD announced optimizations that work great in Clear Linux, maybe they will even contribute profiled AMD code in time.
Thanks again for your work.
Anonymous
would it be feasible
no, it would not.
> Their installers and package management are known to be
…are known to be RPM
(not apt//dpkg -based)would it be feasible
no, it would not.
> Their installers and package management are known to be
…are known to be RPM
(not apt//dpkg -based)Aren’t there RPM to Debian converters like Alien?
sybok
modular Clear Linux package on antiX
Does it mean that you are interested in a single package only?
In the past, I have had some success with the aforementioned tool/program ‘alien’.
It can convert RPM to DEB.
If it does not go wrong and you manage to sort out dependencies, then you *might* get a package working in antiX.
You may indeed try
alien --to-deb <package>.rpmwhich should create ‘<package>.deb’ and then you may run
sudo dpkg -i <package>.deb
followed by
sudo apt install --fix-broken
that may resolve the dependencies.Of course, use at your own risk.
modular Clear Linux package on antiX
Does it mean that you are interested in a single package only?
In the past, I have had some success with the aforementioned tool/program ‘alien’.
It can convert RPM to DEB.
If it does not go wrong and you manage to sort out dependencies, then you *might* get a package working in antiX.
You may indeed try
alien --to-deb <package>.rpmwhich should create ‘<package>.deb’ and then you may run
sudo dpkg -i <package>.deb
followed by
sudo apt install --fix-broken
that may resolve the dependencies.Of course, use at your own risk.
Thanks.
I’m still researching. Apparently, part of the reason Clear Linux is fast is because of the installer/compiler that uses bundles to keep the optimizations relevant and patched among a variety of programs. I think this could still be modular, but the question is what it would do.
Also on the Clear Linux forum I found people who are installing the Clear Linux RPM tool swupd on Debian and other people installing Debian packages on Clear Linux — so this should all work. The question is how to automate it and what drawbacks may exist for the variety of approaches.
seaken64
Not being an expert in Linux distros, I am unsure why a question like this has even been raised? Isn’t Clear Linux a separate distro? What do the Clear Linux packages have that is an advantage over Debian? Why would we want to run Clear Linux instead of antiX and Debian? I’m confused.
seaken64
Brian Masinick
Not being an expert in Linux distros, I am unsure why a question like this has even been raised? Isn’t Clear Linux a separate distro? What do the Clear Linux packages have that is an advantage over Debian? Why would we want to run Clear Linux instead of antiX and Debian? I’m confused.
seaken64
As you may expect, it comes down to a matter of choice. Those who use Clear Linux all the time will undoubtedly have a list of features that they value – I submit that those things happen to be features that the Clear Linux community prefers to use.
For this particular community, I think the efficiency of our software, coupled with the many ways to run it, live, installed, with or without saved persistence, and if persistence is chosen, whether to utilize a static persistence to physically save apps and data, or to use frugal persistence to keep it light, saving only a few things to keep things small, fast, and efficient.
So it’s our choices, the great variety of configurations that Debian offers, (but the lack of highly individualized customization, and a controversial initialization [process initialization] systemd), and the Clear Linux site emphasis is: “Clear Linux OS is an open source, rolling release Linux distribution optimized for performance and security, from the Cloud to the Edge, designed for customization, and manageability.”
My gut reaction: any of them can be customized and configured to work well; clearly we’re optimized for small, efficient software, Clear Linux is “optimized for performance and security…” and Debian is a primary source for many distributions, and a solid choice for stable server-centric environments that can be maintained by well-educated administrators familiar with both Debian and Linux software.
We win on frugal live media; that’s our most recent addition to our overall efforts for efficiency and flexibility.
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Brian MasinickNot being an expert in Linux distros, I am unsure why a question like this has even been raised? Isn’t Clear Linux a separate distro? What do the Clear Linux packages have that is an advantage over Debian? Why would we want to run Clear Linux instead of antiX and Debian? I’m confused.
seaken64
Because Clear Linux is the fastest Linux by a lot. On Intel chipsets there is a cited average of +10% speed increase. There are optimizations for Graphics and games that run at near Windows 10 speed (Linux optimized games will run even faster than on Windows 10). If you use the latest AMD there are optimizations and if you use an old AMD you likely will still gain some performance boosts. Intel employs experts in machine code and compiler development that understand optimization. Because Linux is primarily used on servers, if you buy an Intel Chipset and use Clear Linux you can gain a massive speed increase without additional hardware. Would you want to buy a +10% faster processor or use Clear Linux? I assume that’s something like their server marketing point. If you’re using a VM (which is slow) why would ever not run Clear Linux (assuming no compatibility issues of course)?
As to why to use antiX with Clear Linux, as I said, the Intel developers are basically pulling manpower away from the team for server only (probably because the economy is getting bad). They want the Linux community to step in to handle the desktop experience outside of optimizations (and if not, it will probably be like abandonware). AntiX is one the best package managed distros. A lot of people don’t use Clear Linux because they hate the package manager and there might be possible bloat. It’s a shame to see such a great project be neglected when parts can probably be fit into an antiX package (or swupd streamlined to deploy on Debian) and give a possible big performance boost.
Not being an expert in Linux distros, I am unsure why a question like this has even been raised? Isn’t Clear Linux a separate distro? What do the Clear Linux packages have that is an advantage over Debian? Why would we want to run Clear Linux instead of antiX and Debian? I’m confused.
seaken64
As you may expect, it comes down to a matter of choice. Those who use Clear Linux all the time will undoubtedly have a list of features that they value – I submit that those things happen to be features that the Clear Linux community prefers to use.
For this particular community, I think the efficiency of our software, coupled with the many ways to run it, live, installed, with or without saved persistence, and if persistence is chosen, whether to utilize a static persistence to physically save apps and data, or to use frugal persistence to keep it light, saving only a few things to keep things small, fast, and efficient.
So it’s our choices, the great variety of configurations that Debian offers, (but the lack of highly individualized customization, and a controversial initialization [process initialization] systemd), and the Clear Linux site emphasis is: “Clear Linux OS is an open source, rolling release Linux distribution optimized for performance and security, from the Cloud to the Edge, designed for customization, and manageability.”
My gut reaction: any of them can be customized and configured to work well; clearly we’re optimized for small, efficient software, Clear Linux is “optimized for performance and security…” and Debian is a primary source for many distributions, and a solid choice for stable server-centric environments that can be maintained by well-educated administrators familiar with both Debian and Linux software.
We win on frugal live media; that’s our most recent addition to our overall efforts for efficiency and flexibility.
From looking at some docs and community talk, I think Debian is considered an insecure package manager by corporate standards. There are certain requirements from a corporate client perspective that may prevent Clear Linux devs from using Debian and so they are using RPM like Fedora and Red Hat. But my point of view for the desktop version, I don’t see why there can’t be a Debian friendly version to attract and gain users (which can be further secured possibly at a later date).
Hi, dear Sondro. You should investigate (the ClearLinux docs) to learn what a bundle comprises and how the mixer bundling mechanism operates. Then, read further, and understand that when a bundle is deployed (installed) via swupd it expects to find an OSTree-like operationg system environment. That paradigm is antithetical to apt//dpkg -based package management.
ModdIt
This thread is getting pretty tiring.
Sondro wrote,
From looking at some docs and community talk, I think Debian is considered an insecure package manager by corporate standards. There are certain requirements from a corporate client perspective that may prevent Clear Linux devs from using Debian and so they are using RPM like Fedora and Red Hat. But my point of view for the desktop version, I don’t see why there can’t be a Debian friendly version to attract and gain users (which can be further secured possibly at a later date).Before you write things like above maybe you carefully researche and present facts not marketing hype. .
Apart from other hype like 10% faster, games run nearly as fast as in win 10. Ever asked a gamer about steam. On the desktop of a fairly modern machine running native clear is
not particularly impressive in everday usage. Whiich is why it is not on my machines.,Debian is by the way not a packet manager … RPM is not per se more secure than apt or dpkg. Debian is used by many corporations both as a basis for commercial systems see Ubuntu, and in a pretty much pure state.
Like some kind or marketing manager You want others to make a clear desktop replacement for you for free touting semi facts.
You want it that bad join up with clear fans and create your visioninstead of trying to drive others to fulfill your pipe dream wishes.
This thread is getting pretty tiring.
Sondro wrote,
From looking at some docs and community talk, I think Debian is considered an insecure package manager by corporate standards. There are certain requirements from a corporate client perspective that may prevent Clear Linux devs from using Debian and so they are using RPM like Fedora and Red Hat. But my point of view for the desktop version, I don’t see why there can’t be a Debian friendly version to attract and gain users (which can be further secured possibly at a later date).Before you write things like above maybe you carefully researche and present facts not marketing hype. .
Apart from other hype like 10% faster, games run nearly as fast as in win 10. Ever asked a gamer about steam. On the desktop of a fairly modern machine running native clear is
not particularly impressive in everday usage. Whiich is why it is not on my machines.,Debian is by the way not a packet manager … RPM is not per se more secure than apt or dpkg. Debian is used by many corporations both as a basis for commercial systems see Ubuntu, and in a pretty much pure state.
Like some kind or marketing manager You want others to make a clear desktop replacement for you for free touting semi facts.
You want it that bad join up with clear fans and create your visioninstead of trying to drive others to fulfill your pipe dream wishes.
Uh Debian is the system, dbkg and APT are individual tools. I’m a software engineer who needs to compile and run both Windows and Linux. I’m not some random gamer on a forum looking for ‘good enough’ and starting arguments with people. It’s well known that RPM has a different security philosophy of what is and isn’t acceptable, nobody cares what companies use Ubuntu and trying to take things personal. Also, nobody asked anybody to do anything. I have no idea who you are and your language makes you sound like someone with some kind of mental issue getting angry and ‘tired’ about simple posts. You’re exactly the type of negative person people don’t tolerate on development teams.
If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. It’s open source, which requires an open mind by open users. I’m not being paid for this. Feel free to ignore the thread instead of reading it and being greatly distressed by new and different ideas.
- This reply was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by Sondro.
Hi, dear Sondro. You should investigate (the ClearLinux docs) to learn what a bundle comprises and how the mixer bundling mechanism operates. Then, read further, and understand that when a bundle is deployed (installed) via swupd it expects to find an OSTree-like operationg system environment. That paradigm is antithetical to apt//dpkg -based package management.
Well if Alien works, I assume it’s just doing some path swapping and parsing. If that is the case then maybe I can just fork swupd and alter the paths like in Alien or even call Alien to patch paths for it from a temp directory.
An alternative is to make it easier to install Debian packages onto Clear Linux, which again, sounds mostly like path parsing/swapping issues.
- This reply was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by Sondro.
I’m still confused. Perhaps it is because I am not a software developer. Are you asking if antiX can be the front end for a Clear Linux virtual machine? As I understand things, Clear Linux is a distribution. antix is a distribution. Is your suggestion to create a type of merge? Like MX uses some antiX tools?
I fail to see why Clear Linux needs another distro.
A lot of people don’t use Clear Linux because they hate the package manager and there might be possible bloat. It’s a shame to see such a great project be neglected when parts can probably be fit into an antiX package (or swupd streamlined to deploy on Debian) and give a possible big performance boost.
So, an antiX package that coverts the system into Clear Linux? As a “spin” or remaster? Willm you be the supporting developer? You can’t expect the antiX team to support a non-antiX project, right? So, your asking is antiX is intereested? Putting out feelers?
Forgive me. I’m relatively new to the linux developer’s world. Shouldn’t such a request be handled by a private message with the antiX developers to judge their interest? I’m asking. I really don’t know. But I guess I understand the idea of “hey, we have this and we’d like to talk to you about joining forces. Interested?” But is that what you are asking? Or am I still way off base on what this topic is about?
seaken64
- The topic ‘Clear Linux package on antiX?’ is closed to new replies.
