Debian 12 “bookworm” Reaches First Code Freeze

Forum Forums News News Debian 12 “bookworm” Reaches First Code Freeze

  • This topic has 12 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated Jan 25-9:53 pm by Brian Masinick.
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  • #97995
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    olsztyn

      Looks like as of yesterday Debian 12 Bookworm enters freeze development stages:
      https://debugpointnews.com/debian-12-freeze/

      Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
      https://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

      #98000
      Member
      user2022
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        Debian 12 uses mesa 22.3.3-1
        https://packages.debian.org/source/bookworm/mesa

        But from mesa 22.0 drop support of many old videocard support
        https://docs.mesa3d.org/relnotes/22.0.0.html
        classic/r100: Delete driver
        classic/r200: Delete driver
        classic/nouveau: Remove driver
        classic/i915: Remove driver
        classic/i965: Remove driver
        mesa/dri: remove mega driver stub

        What version of mesa will be include antix based of debian-12 ?

        #98051
        Member
        sybok
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          Comment: The choice may be (partially?) dictated by minimal (viable) requirements of the most popular browsers (Firefox and Chromium-based ones).

          #98062
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          marcelocripe
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            But from mesa 22.0 drop support of many old videocard support
            https://docs.mesa3d.org/relnotes/22.0.0.html
            classic/r100: Delete driver
            classic/r200: Delete driver
            classic/nouveau: Remove driver
            classic/i915: Remove driver
            classic/i965: Remove driver
            mesa/dri: remove mega driver stub

            I read this and immediately think about planned obsolescence and how the antiX developers will manage to make the miracle for antiX 23 to be usable on the many computers that will be abandoned by Debian 12 and the other operating systems.

            – – – – –

            But from mesa 22.0 drop support of many old videocard support
            https://docs.mesa3d.org/relnotes/22.0.0.html
            classic/r100: Delete driver
            classic/r200: Delete driver
            classic/nouveau: Remove driver
            classic/i915: Remove driver
            classic/i965: Remove driver
            mesa/dri: remove mega driver stub

            Eu leio isso e logo penso na obsolescência programada e em como os desenvolvedores do antiX conseguirão fazer o milagre para o antiX 23 ser utilizável nos diversos computadores que serão abandonados pelo Debian 12 e pelos outros sistemas operacionais.

            #98064
            Forum Admin
            anticapitalista
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              We may not be able to do anything on antiX-23 bookworm re mesa.
              If we cannot, at least antiX-21/22 is supported until c 2026.

              Added: Usually Debian does keep some if not all drivers

              See here what is kept https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/amd64/libgl1-mesa-dri/filelist

              • This reply was modified 5 days, 5 hours ago by anticapitalista. Reason: added more information

              Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

              antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

              #98136
              Forum Admin
              Dave
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                Debian 12 uses mesa 22.3.3-1
                https://packages.debian.org/source/bookworm/mesa

                But from mesa 22.0 drop support of many old videocard support
                https://docs.mesa3d.org/relnotes/22.0.0.html
                classic/r100: Delete driver
                classic/r200: Delete driver
                classic/nouveau: Remove driver
                classic/i915: Remove driver
                classic/i965: Remove driver
                mesa/dri: remove mega driver stub

                What version of mesa will be include antix based of debian-12 ?

                Maybe compile and package the missing drivers from the secondary branch…
                https://docs.mesa3d.org/amber.html

                Computers are like air conditioners. They work fine until you start opening Windows. ~Author Unknown

                #98144
                Member
                user2022
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                  Maybe compile and package the missing drivers from the secondary branch…
                  https://docs.mesa3d.org/amber.html

                  Hi, Dave

                  mesa-amber package does not exist in bookworm repo https://packages.debian.org/search?suite=bookworm&searchon=names&keywords=amber

                  As I understand mesa-amber it is like fork of old mesa 21 and in one system i can not install mesa 22 and mesa-amber 21…

                  https://archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/mesa-amber/
                  https://archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/mesa/

                  mesa-amber conflicts with mesa

                  #98145
                  Member
                  Xunzi_23
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                    from https://docs.mesa3d.org/amber.html Building
                    The Amber branch has some extra logic to be able to coexist with recent Mesa releases without
                    them stepping on each others toes. In order to enable that logic, you need to pass the
                    -Damber=true flag to Meson.

                    If as stated both packages should be able to coexist.

                    I do worry that the debian and many other devs are living in a bubble, much of the world is getting poorer
                    at a very rapid rate. Better keep an an older device working than have none at all. And binning old devices
                    is not at all environment friendly.

                    #98190
                    Member
                    blur13
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                      How “old” videocards are we talking about here? 10 yrs, 15 yrs, 20 yrs? How can I check if my videocard is affected?

                      #98193
                      Moderator
                      Brian Masinick
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                        I do worry that the debian and many other devs are living in a bubble, much of the world is getting poorer
                        at a very rapid rate. Better keep an an older device working than have none at all. And binning old devices
                        is not at all environment friendly.

                        I understand your comment and I appreciate it.

                        I also appreciate the position of Debian and their development team. For a long time they’ve supported
                        many architectures and platforms. For countless years the Debian project has been notorious for being
                        well behind the curve in having their current version anywhere close to the current generation of Linux
                        software.

                        Over the past couple of years they’ve tried to do better in this regard. They took a look at the
                        statistics of the number of downloads, installations and updates for each of their supported platforms,
                        and after a lot of review, discussion (probably arguments too), they decided to purge a few of their
                        rarely used releases because the amount of work needed to support them was far greater than the number
                        of observed systems actually using those releases.

                        Regarding these latest changes, well it’s obvious that some of us do still use certain platforms.
                        For us, systems from distributions like antiX, various Puppy Linux versions, and possibly something
                        like Absolute Linux might serve us.

                        As far as the next Debian release dropping support for some of the hardware that our antiX users
                        DO use, anticapitalista has already stated “We may not be able to do anything on antiX-23 bookworm re mesa.
                        If we cannot, at least antiX-21/22 is supported until c 2026.”

                        Moreover, I also know that a few people have had to resort to using older versions of antiX to support
                        their systems. That’s certainly not ideal, but it may provide an additional option for those who
                        simply cannot find any versions that work any more.

                        I do have a collection of CD and DVD images that go back quite a few years. They contain software
                        that’s no longer in active development, but in an absolutely worst case scenario, that could also
                        provide a potential source of code that would at least be possible to use on some really old
                        equipment before giving up on it entirely.

                        My suggestion is to make sure you have at least one copy of our antiX Version 21 or 22 available.
                        That will keep a supported system available until calendar year 2026.

                        Brian
                        Or "The Mas"

                        #98205
                        Member
                        olsztyn
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                          How “old” videocards are we talking about here? 10 yrs, 15 yrs, 20 yrs? How can I check if my videocard is affected?

                          I am running antiX 22 on Debian 12 Bookworm/SID with Mesa 22.3.3 full time now and so far all my laptops with variety of displays seem to work fine:

                          X61 – Intel – about 2008
                          T410 – nVidia 3100NVS – about 2010
                          T520 – nVidia 4200NVS – about 2012

                          Later update:
                          Tested a few more laptops for antiX 22 on Debian 12 Bookworm/SID:

                          – Thinkpad Z61P – Video AMD Radeon OpenGL -1920×1200 – About 2009
                          – Thinkpad X220 – Intel video – 2012
                          – Thinkpad T410 with Intel video – about 2010

                          All the above work fine.

                          But again, need to test older hardware as mentioned before:
                          Perhaps it is a good opportunity to ask about experience of members with much older hardware though…

                          As I am running antiX 22 runit on Debian 12 Bookworm full time now on variety of hardware my experience is quite positive so far. But I consider 2008+ hardware not ‘old’ as yet, though…

                          • This reply was modified 3 days, 20 hours ago by olsztyn.
                          • This reply was modified 3 days, 4 hours ago by olsztyn.
                          • This reply was modified 3 days, 4 hours ago by olsztyn.

                          Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
                          https://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

                          #98256
                          Member
                          blur13
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                            I think my oldest videocard is from 2008 so I guess that will work. Thanks for your testing efforts!

                            #98259
                            Moderator
                            Brian Masinick
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                              Looks like as of yesterday Debian 12 Bookworm enters freeze development stages:
                              https://debugpointnews.com/debian-12-freeze/

                              According to this page, “At the core, Debian 12 bookworm features Linux Kernel 5.19, which was released on August 2022. A significant version upgrade since Debian 11. And it’s pretty recent and supports all the major manufacturers’ modern hardware lineups (CPU, GPU, SoC). The current development version is Linux Kernel 6.2, which is just two versions behind considering the three/four months Kernel release cycle.”

                              On the other hand, at the https://backports.debian.org/bullseye-backports/overview/ site, the table lists:

                              Package 	bullseye-backports 	bookworm 	Changed by 	Signed by
                              linux 	        6.0.12-1~bpo11+1 	6.1.4-1 	Ben Hutchings   <benh@deb...> 	Ben Hutchings

                              So if all goes well, we should have a long term stable kernel 5.19 to support current modern hardware.
                              We will also have a 6.1,4-1 and a 6.2 kernel that should also be available.

                              For Debian users who have pretty old gear, I’d advise saving the kernels and their libraries that work with your current hardware; be sure to save BOTH environments. the stuff in /boot and the stuff in /lib to ensure support.

                              For example, when I wanted to obtain NEWER hardware support, I had to bring not only the new kernel along, I also had to bring with me the contents
                              of /lib/modules and /lib/kernel, and in my case, the modules for my wireless card too. Those with older hardware will want to retain old contents; I suggest it would be wise to save the same directories in case they will be needed. If not, you can dispose of them once you are complete with your installation and configuration. It’s wiser and safer to save anything you may want or need. Perhaps the easiest way of all would be to perform a full backup of your system. It would take much more time, but in the event of issues you will have an entire system you can go back to, as long as you are certain that your backup copy can also be accurately restored.

                              Backups and restores are always a good practice, though few individuals actually use them or think of them until it’s too late.

                              Brian
                              Or "The Mas"

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