Difference between Testing and Sid

[Member seaken64]

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I just finished updating to Sid. But I noticed I enabled the deb-multimedia.org repo. I remember reading that can cause problems. Maybe I shouldn’t have enabled it. But so far everything looks good in antiX-21 Sid.

Here’s the inxi report:

inxi -Fxzr
System:
  Kernel: 4.9.0-279-antix.1-486-smp i686 bits: 32 compiler: gcc v: 10.2.1 
  Desktop: IceWM 2.9.1 Distro: antiX-21_386-full Grup Yorum 31 October 2021 
  base: Debian GNU/Linux bookworm/sid 
Machine:
  Type: Desktop System: Dell product: Dimension 2400 v: N/A serial: <filter> 
  Mobo: Dell model: 0C2425 v: A00 serial: <filter> BIOS: Dell v: A03 
  date: 09/19/2003 
CPU:
  Info: Single Core model: Intel Celeron bits: 32 type: MCP 
  arch: Netburst Northwood rev: 9 cache: L2: 128 KiB 
  flags: pae sse sse2 bogomips: 4785 
  Speed: 2393 MHz min/max: N/A Core speed (MHz): 1: 2393 
Graphics:
  Device-1: Intel 82845G/GL[Brookdale-G]/GE Integrated Graphics 
  vendor: Dell Dimension 2400 driver: i915 v: kernel bus-ID: 00:02.0 
  Display: x11 server: X.Org 1.20.13 driver: loaded: intel 
  unloaded: fbdev,modesetting,vesa resolution: 1280x1024~85Hz 
  OpenGL: renderer: Mesa DRI Intel 845G x86/MMX/SSE2 v: 1.3 Mesa 21.2.6 
  direct render: Yes 
Audio:
  Device-1: Intel 82801DB/DBL/DBM AC97 Audio vendor: Dell Dimension 2400 
  driver: snd_intel8x0 v: kernel bus-ID: 00:1f.5 
  Sound Server-1: ALSA v: k4.9.0-279-antix.1-486-smp running: yes 
Network:
  Device-1: Broadcom BCM4401 100Base-T vendor: Dell Dimension 2400 
  driver: b44 v: 2.0 port: edc0 bus-ID: 01:09.0 
  IF-ID-1: eth1 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter> 
Drives:
  Local Storage: total: 159.76 GiB used: 29.24 GiB (18.3%) 
  ID-1: /dev/sda vendor: Western Digital model: WD400EB-75CPF0 
  size: 37.27 GiB 
  ID-2: /dev/sdb vendor: Quantum model: FIREBALL CR8.4A size: 7.87 GiB 
  ID-3: /dev/sdc type: USB vendor: SanDisk model: USB 3.2Gen1 
  size: 114.61 GiB 
Partition:
  ID-1: / size: 7.65 GiB used: 4.59 GiB (60.0%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sdb1 
Swap:
  ID-1: swap-1 type: partition size: 1023 MiB used: 0 KiB (0.0%) 
  dev: /dev/sda5 
Sensors:
  Message: No sensor data found. Is lm-sensors configured? 
Repos:
  Packages: 1625 
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/antix.list 
  1: deb http://mirrors.rit.edu/mxlinux/mx-packages/antix/sid sid main nosystemd nonfree
  No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/bullseye-backports.list 
  No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian-stable-updates.list 
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian.list 
  1: deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ unstable main contrib non-free
  2: deb http://www.deb-multimedia.org sid main non-free
  No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/onion.list 
  No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/various.list 
Info:
  Processes: 137 Uptime: 6m Memory: 998.9 MiB used: 157 MiB (15.7%) 
  Init: SysVinit runlevel: 5 Compilers: gcc: 11.2.0 Shell: Bash v: 5.1.12 
  inxi: 3.3.06 

[Moderator Brian Masinick]

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Regarding the deb-multimedia.org repo, I don’t always have it available on all of my Debian-based systems. For instance, on siduction, which I’m using right now on my newest computer, I don’t even have it in my lists.

On antiX, when present, I may enable it long enough to grab certain packages, then comment it out, though I’ve not done that in a while.

If you do enable it to grab some multi-media software, I recommend commenting it out except when you are specifically downloading or updating media software.

I’m happy to hear that you had success installing antiX with Sid enabled. This is a GREAT time to be running it with Sid.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Brian Masinick.

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Brian Masinick

[Member stevesr0]

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I am running a Sid install started when antiX-19 was the current stable. Following the instructions in h2’s post, I see that I am indeed running bookworm/Sid.

I am unclear about the appropriate repositories – I see that I have Bullseye stable and Bullseye stable updates in my repo list, in addition to testing and unstable/Sid.

My (ignorant) question is why do I need the stable repo if I am already getting the newer unstable and testing versions? Is this because some programs don’t get updated frequently?

I also am unclear about the availability of other repos beyond those provided “by default” with an install.

(I have looked on the forum but haven’t seen a thread about these particular questions, nor about a guide to choosing repos.)

stevesr0

[Moderator Brian Masinick]

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Regarding the presence of multiple (different version) repos:

Unless you are either installing one or a few specific packages, then commenting out the other repositories, you are either going to have a big problem or the NEWEST repository will generally be chosen. Hopefully, if you examine the repositories carefully, ONLY one SET of them will be enabled, though there may be different repositories for different GROUPS of packages; still, they should all be one of the group {stable,testing,unstable} or one of the group with project theme names – in late 2021-early 2022, stable is Bullseye, testing is Bookworm, and unstable is always Sid. Moreover, packages that have not passed through a set of tests are first unstable, then promoted to Testing – so Sid and Bookworm, at the present time, are “similar”, with Bookworm the packages that will ultimately end up in the NEXT version of Stable – though by the time that happens, Bookworm MIGHT go through 2-3, maybe as many as 4-5 updates to certain packages, depending on how often they are updated with new features or bug fixes.

But let’s simplify this a bit: before you worry about the presence of multiple versions of repositories, use either synaptic, or manually navigate into the /etc/apt directory and look at the sources.list file, or in /etc/apt/sources.list.d directory, the files with a .list name extension.

Any entries with a # are comments, including words of explanation or repositories that have been deselected.
Lines beginning with deb are the Debian binary repositories. Lines beginning with deb-src are source code repositories, where users and developers may build their own versions of software packages.

There’s more to it than this, but hopefully this is enough. Ask questions if any of this is unclear, and either I’ll respond or other responsive and experienced people will add (or correct) anything inaccurate or unclear.

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Brian Masinick

[Anonymous]

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On the left you can see my current sources.
On the right you see the sources if you want to ride with sid.

Basically I recommend to use the sid sources right during the installation.
Activating the sid sources later, after you have worked with the standard sources for some time, is not a good idea.
The ISO should be core, at most base.

Basically you work with apt and not with “copied” GUI’s.

Be aware that sooner or later the system will break. This is simply because anticapitalista cannot always follow the speed of Debian’s package updates. Or, the user was not attentive enough. Debian works with systemd.

If you want to have a stable system, use sid(uction).

[Member stevesr0]

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Thanks Brian and male,

My source lists have pretty much always been the default ones “given” me by the installer. My one exception with one system was a repo from the Steve who is a big contributor on MX Linux.

My repos match male’s.

As to the stable repo for someone with a sid/unstable install, I can understand that it is present because of the multitude of stable packages available for installation, but not automatically installed with the initial install of the system. Beyond that, won’t all “updated” versions of those available but not installed packages come through testing and/or unstable before becoming a “stable” update?

Just curious.

stevesr0

[Moderator Brian Masinick]

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Quote: …”won’t all “updated” versions of those available but not installed packages come through testing and/or unstable before becoming a “stable” update?”

Yes they will. The majority of Debian packages initiate their life cycle in the “Sid” unstable repository, where they undergo the most basic set of tests. Assuming the packages are organized and entered correctly, they will remain in unstable for a few weeks and get promoted to Testing. They live there until the next release.
During the project stage where all packages are “frozen”, meaning no further changes, the entire Testing repository is rigorously tested. If no release grade defects are reported, the release cycle completes and a new release is produced. For minor release cycles, code that’s in Testing will simply migrate to Stable. For major release cycles, there is a much more rigorous set of tests, but the general path is 1) Unstable –> 2) Testing –> 3) Stable.

Occasionally there are completely new packages, usually brand new software or applications that are not maintained by Debian; though rare, these cases may have a separate “Experimental” repository, where they are also tested. I’m not 100% certain what the criteria are, or if these packages also go to unstable –> testing –> stable; that’s usually the case, so that’s my guess for these too.

The Debian project does have a lot of documentation; if you have the time or interest, you can find the latest information that is certainly more accurate and definitive than the simplistic explanation I have written here.

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Brian Masinick

[Moderator Brian Masinick]

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Here’s what I do: most of the time when I am using antiX I use the repositories provided with the release, modified only to choose sites either close or “better performing” for my location, otherwise the same as those distributed.

The siduction distribution was mentioned; I often use that when I want to test or use the newest Debian software.
I have often used sidux, a much earlier incarnation, or siduction, the current generation’s version of a Sid-based distribution.

Years ago, I had stable, testing AND Sid versions of antiX – my personal antiX Core was a modification based on Sid.

These days I just use the stock software. Both are good, but you have to be a bit more careful with Sid-based stuff. Most of the time it’s fine, but you do have to pay attention to package changes and check what’s being modified before accepting the change, or risk the potential for breakage. Frankly, it doesn’t break often, but it can occasionally happen. With antiX, there’s the possibility of errors, but it’s extremely rare to find a show stopper unless it’s during early testing, and even then, it’s not very common. All of this stuff is good software; still, there’s less tinkering needed with the most stable stuff, and if you are a casual user, who cares whether it’s new or old, as long as it’s solid; our distribution is very good, efficient, and stable.

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Brian Masinick

[Member stevesr0]

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Hi Brian,

Thanks for the explanation.

I recognize someone may have expalined this in a post somewhere on the web.

I only asked on the forum, because I thought it was a small point that might be easily answered by “those in the know” about antiX and would be of benefit to others who were unclear on what comes from which repo.

stevesr0

[Member seaken64]

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@stevesr0,

Here is a quote from anticaps instructions I linked to earlier:

Only use antix and debian repos and only use sid/unstable – do not mix with buster, buster-backports, testing.

I interpreted that to have ONLY the sid repositories enabled. You should not keep the staple repos enabled.

In other words, if running sid comment out all repos other than sid/unstable.

I originally enabled the deb-multimedia unstable repo but I have since disabled it. I now only have two repo lines enabled, antiX sid and Debian unstable.

Seaken64

[Moderator Brian Masinick]

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That’s right; be consistent with the repository version and use consistent versions.

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Brian Masinick

[Member stevesr0]

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Hi seaken64,

(See UPDATE below)

Thanks for your response. Your quote from anticapitalista seems to mirror his post from 2018 (see below).

I have the following active repositories (category listed in “()”):
1. sid nonfree main (antix.list, debian.list)
2. sid contrib (debian.list)
3. sid nosystemd (antix.list)
4. testing nonfree main (antix.list, debian.list)
5. testing contrib testing-security (debian.list)
6. bullseye main nonfree (antix.list, debian.list)
7. bullseye contrib, (antix.list.dpgk-old, debian.list)
8. bullseye-security (debian.list)
9. bullseye nosystemd (antix.list)
10. bullseye-backports nonfree contrib main (bullseye-backports.list)
11. bullseye-updates nonfree contrib main (debian-stable-updates.list)

UPDATE: I have just now read through the 2018 thread entitled antix Sid debian repos. So unless things have changed from that time, I have way too many list files AND individual repos active.

Anti’s list recommendations for Sid users:

“antix.list

# Use with Debian Sid repositories.
deb http://repo.antixlinux.com/sid sid main nosystemd

debian.list

###### Debian Unstable/Sid##########
###### Use at your own risk! ########
deb http://ftp.gr.debian.org/debian/ unstable main contrib non-free”

Note Bene. If this is still the case, everything in testing, stable, updates and backports should also be in Sid? So, the Sid repositories should be larger than the other versions (testing, stable). What isn’t covered with anticapitalista’s lists are security packages; aren’t they needed in Sid?

I would appreciate a response before I redo my active repositories.

Happy holidays to all.

stevesr0

• This reply was modified 1 year, 4 months ago by stevesr0.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 4 months ago by stevesr0.

[Member seaken64]

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Hi stevesr0,

Unfortunately this is above my pay grade. I’ll refer you to anti and Brian, or someone else who knows. But I think you only want the sid/unstable enabled by default. You may choose to enable some of the others on a temporary basis only when appropriate for a particular package. That is the approach I have always used with the current Stable. When using Stable only enable Testing or Sid temporarily when trying to pull in certain dependencies. Otherwise keep them disabled. The same seems to apply to Sid, only it is in reverse. But like I said, I am not the expert in this matter. Wait for anti to clarify for you.

Seaken64

[Member stevesr0]

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Hi all/anyone,

I am attempting to answer my questions in my last post by checking the packages and their origins on my Sid install.

I have looked at the packages installed (940) and the last upgrade (43 packages waiting for me to act).

Only a few packages were not available in the unstable/Sid repos:

two from debian repositories:

libsemanage1 – “local” origin
libsepol1 – Debian 11.0 stable

Both of these are part of SELINUX which I am not using.

elogind and related packages version 246.10-3.0antix1_amd64 were only available in the antix Bullseye repo.
The Sid repo only provides the 246.10-2.antix4 version.

The related packages are libelogind0 and libpam_elogind.

libprocps7 is also listed in aptitude as only being in the antix Bullseye repo.

Overall, it appears that I would be doing fine to limit my repos as suggested by anticapitalista in 2018 and noted by seaken. BUT, the lack of the most recent versions of elogind and its related libraries in my unstable repositories is a concern.

I imagine there is a simple reason for this, either due to some screwup in my updates or that the newest version is for some reason incompatible with Sid.

Re: upgrades:
There are a few packages that have BOTH an antix version and a non antix version. Some are kernels and in a few other cases are installed antix version packages with an upgrade NON antix version. I understand that I shouldn’t upgrade from an antix version to a more recent non antix one. If this is confirmed, I will be happy to attempt to downgrade any nonantix versions to the prior antix ones.

I await enlightenment, pretty please.

stevesr0

[Moderator Brian Masinick]

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My kindest advice is to (if possible) reinstall antiX and use the Stable repository group until you are able to understand and repair issues on your own. I’m not sure what brought in the packages in question, but I follow my own advice: when using antiX these days, I simply use the Stable repo. I use another excellent distribution called siduction when I want to experiment with Sid.

Another option if you have enough hardware or extra partitions is to install antiX Stable in one instance and antiX Sid in another (AND backup your work). That way, if something fails, you can either recover from a recent backup or reinstall again. If you have spare hardware it is even easier – make one box the experimental box, try all kinds of things, good and bad, learn what works and what doesn’t and use the other box as an every day, stable system.

I have both, but I do have both stable and unstable systems on my newest computer. If I break anything, I have media available to reinstall software and I use mostly cloud-based communication mechanisms (with more than one option) so no one single mistake – even a major one – will shut me down, short of a complete power failure that takes down the Internet. I have battery power on most of my devices, but if the service provider goes down (VERY rare indeed) I’m OK. I have had provider failure 1-2 times in the past 20-25 years; never more than 1-2 hours over 20+ years; not a very high risk single point or double point of failure.

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Brian Masinick

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