Do you Dare to Ask Why?

Forum Forums antiX-development Development Do you Dare to Ask Why?

This topic contains 15 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by SetHarth Jun 15-8:53 pm.

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  • #10798
    Member

    BobC

    What makes one distro very popular vs another “less so”? When a lot of the code is common it begs the question Why…

    Ok, is it a technical question or a subjective thing like “branding” (in marketing terms), ie does the Anti in AntiX bother people? To me, it represents daring to be different. Maybe that bothers people, what do I know? I think being willing to question and even reject common “truths” like SystemD is good, or that only a full prepackaged desktop environment can provide people what they want or need is honest. Not everything is cast in stone as good or bad.

    I remember now what bugged me about MX. Ok XFCE, the desktop itself, eats too much memory, I noticed nobody was looking at memory use and went and checked it on my Dell XPS 15 (416 mb used according to ps_mem.py from a terminal with nothing else running from a clean boot, just installed). But whet really bothered me was the THOUGHT POLICE who said I couldn’t even ask this or that. What do they have to FEAR? Do they think me incapable of doing a dpkg -l from the two installs and comparing the 2 lists? What was WRONG with me asking which were the ones that made it something they wanted to run everyday?

    I dared to ask what people’s favorite features were in MX (in general, those get reflected in the package list) that make it more attractive than say AntiX. I’m sure given the common development base and developers etc, these questions have come up, but God forbid anyone should mention such heretic thoughts out in the open as what features people like.

    I remember Lotus 123 and how it drove people to IBM PC’s once upon a time. It was a “must have” app in its day.

    It just seems to me there must me something people like better, but after running it for a day, I didn’t figure out what it was and dared to ask. Maybe it was the 4 hours trying to get the WiFi running (couldn’t see/recognize the odd/small icon) and get Grub to boot from EFI (always a problem with all distro’s tried except Debian), made more difficult because the manual and faq type stuff wasn’t available because I wasn’t connected. Maybe those busted my expectations and tainted my view. I will probably try MX again to go thru it to see what I’m missing by running AntiX, but its hard to find what programs are there to run without a normal menu, for example the network manager isn’t on the menus, so I probably need to work from some derivative of the package list.

    Please don’t anyone get upset. If I didn’t think this was the best system out there, I wouldn’t be running it or worrying about what it might be missing that I or others might want…

    • This topic was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by BobC.
    • This topic was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by BobC.
    #10803
    Forum Admin
    dolphin_oracle
    dolphin_oracle

    Well, here’s the thing.

    The question you posted over at MX Forums, while I imagine was completely innocent in your case, is very reminiscent of other trollish type posts that apparently had the goal of pitting one group against the other. The mods might have been overzealous in locking the thread, but its from past experience. The mods are not perfect.

    We also go out of our way to not attempt to steal users from antiX. and vice versa in the case of antiX pulling users from MX. Rather we try to direct folks to what they want. Often folks come to antiX and immediately throw Xfce on it and wonder why it doesn’t work like MX. And vice versa with folks putting one of the window managers on MX and not getting the antiX experience.

    Talking about MX/antiX vs. Ubuntu/puppy/whatever, that would not likely earn the mod’s ire. Or even asking about differences. But your post had the feel of asking folks to convince you to switch. And that we try not to do.

    Moving on, if you think antiX and MX are very similar, well you’re right. We make no effort to hide the fact that MX is based on antiX (in our case, a heavily modified antiX-core as a matter of fact). The prime differences are in the desktop environment (xfce vs. the windows managers in antiX), the mx-tools (which isn’t as great a difference as it once was because many of those tools have also come to antiX :happy: ) and the package repositories (mx uses a tremendous amount of packages backported to debian stable and antiX operates a “nosystemd” repo of debian packages redone so they don’t depend on systemd). there are some other choices that affect memory footprint, but those are the big ones.

    Incidentally, for those that may come to this thread later, the MX manual is in the menu (as MX-Manual) and does not require an internet connection to view (it’s an on-disk pdf). The installers on antiX and MX are also functionally identical, and once updated isos come out, they will actually be identical (as we just spent a lot of time re-unifying code), and yes, there are further improvements to the efi boots for certain hardware.

    #10804
    Member
    caprea
    caprea

    Why someone uses mx or antiX is a personal decision in the end and does not particularly interest me.
    I know both systems more or less and prefer antix because it’s just faster and I’m not a fan of doing it all with mouse-clicks.
    In fact, I have the feeling at antix of learning why things are as they are, and at Mx I get a veritable, bad mouse-click Koller when I go through the settings.
    But that’s just my personal taste.

    Now to the forums. I really like the smell of freedom on this forum here. Very, very, very rarely, a post is closed. I never felt pushed down or patronized, not even after a personal discussion with a moderator.

    It seems like at mx-forum, the administrators and moderators like to answer the questions of the users themselves (which they do very well) and at Antix-forum users often help each other and that gives you the feeling of doing something together (very nice).
    Also there have been closed more often posts in the Mx-forum and I did not understand why.
    Maybe it’s just because Mx has more users, and more often a few crazy people.
    But I agree with you, that all can have an effect of patronizing.
    But as dolphin_oracle said, also the mods are not perfect.
    I wouldn’t take it to heart.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by caprea.
    #10806
    Member
    cyrilus31
    cyrilus31

    That’s the only thing that annoys me a bit in MX Forum. Too polite, always even-tempered.
    I tried to initiate a “political” discussion (about Paris agreement). Destroyed in 15 minutes 🙁
    They should have a specific topic to talk about everything and nothing.
    Anyway, if I would like to I would do it on antiX forum and I’m fine with it.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by cyrilus31.
    #10809
    Member

    BobC

    Sorry if I get upset easily over little things. No, I wasn’t looking for someone to convince me to switch, or to start any arguments, more like point me towards the prize of apps that I don’t know about that I would wish I had.

    I have seen many discussions of building MX from an AntiX base, or adding XFCE on top of AntiX, but no discussion of them really was saying what particular apps were motivating it.

    #10813
    Moderator
    masinick
    masinick

    Bobc, I am a big fan of both antiX and MX.

    Here are a few differences between them. AntiX was originally derived from MEPIS. MX is an antiX alternative. MEPIS began with the KDE desktop and was created with ease of use as a primary objective.
    When MEPIS ceased development, MX was, ironically enough, built from the flexible antiX,replacing KDE with Xfce.

    Both KDE and Xfce are considered desktop environments. As such, certain applications generally are included, for example the Konsole terminal and Konqueror file manager (KDE) and the xfterm terminal and Thunar file manager (Xfce).

    https://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/start

    Shows common XFCE applications.

    AntiX contains applications chosen, not by a desktop, instead chosen for size and efficiency.

    MX is not a straight XFCE distribution. Instead, like antiX, it is tailored toward a desktop that also favors efficiency.

    Neither MX nor antiX are tied exclusively to the upstream developments on which they are based.

    I hope this at least provides a few comments. What would be more helpful to satisfy your questions?

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by masinick.

    Brian Masinick

    #10814
    Member
    Richard
    Richard

    I believe antiX and MX attract different groups/types of users.

    By virtue of being more ‘Windows-like’ with a desktop environment,
    MX gets a much wider variety of new user –some knowledgeable, some newbies
    and some Windows power users who want to try the next new thing and make it more Windows-like.

    antiX is promoted as for older equipment. Users tend to be more experienced, knowledgeable,
    and less GUI oriented. Some use it because of their equipment, others because it’s so fast.
    IceWM always makes me smile every time it starts up.

    In the end, people tend to gravitate to what comes closest to their ideal system, OOTB.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by Richard.
    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by Richard.

    MX17, antiX17: T430, AAOne & EeePC netbooks

    #10817
    Forum Admin
    rokytnji
    rokytnji

    My 2 pesos.

    Anti is to me is dude who backs the downtrodden. Strong guys like us who don’t like bullies seem to drift together eventually.
    He is more polished than me when upset though.

    Being a Mod at MX and here. I am not as proactive or even active like I am here.
    I figure they have enough hands there for me to just advise and help in small mod dutoes.

    I probably don’t think or act ike most Linux?Users . I am bit more rough around the edges 🙂 I use AntiX and MX cuz I wanna
    I don’t use other Distros cuz I don’t wanna.

    Simple as that

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by rokytnji.

    Beer, Bikes, and BBQ. It's what we do
    Linux Registered User # 475019
    How to Search for AntiX solutions to your problems

    #10819
    Forum Admin
    rokytnji
    rokytnji

    That’s the only thing that annoys me a bit in MX Forum. Too polite, always even-tempered.
    I tried to initiate a “political” discussion (about Paris agreement). Destroyed in 15 minutes 🙁
    They should have a specific topic to talk about everything and nothing.
    Anyway, if I would like to I would do it on antiX forum and I’m fine with it.

    tered

    I got a Windows/Mac/Linux forum I mod at that has a boiling point thread section where anything goes short of personal insults and out right online bulling.
    It is a Senior Citizen members forum mostly with some young dudes sprinkled in here and there.

    Enter at your own risk type of forum section.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by rokytnji.

    Beer, Bikes, and BBQ. It's what we do
    Linux Registered User # 475019
    How to Search for AntiX solutions to your problems

    #10824
    Member

    BobC

    I think at this point I can see that MX isn’t the right daily driver for me. I’m the guy that has to take everything apart and tweak and tune and make it run like a banshee, on nothing but fumes…

    Thanks to everyone for explaining a bit.

    I would say that MX would be a good choice if I was setting up a 10 yr old or less PC for a non-computer programmer friend or relative, but not as likely for someone that wants to change everything around. AntiX with all its window manager choices has the attitude of being able to change things a lot at the heart of its design.

    If anyone hears of any must have apps that people like me might want to cobble onto our systems, let me know, please…

    #10837
    Moderator
    masinick
    masinick

    Hey Bobc, that’s fine because antiX is superb to tinker with.

    As Dolphin Oracle mentioned though, both distributions have similar roots beneath.

    For a growing tinkerer, some interesting academic projects might be to disassemble an MX distro to run like an anti and vice versa! (Grin)

    Brian Masinick

    #10842
    Member
    azrielle
    azrielle

    Some back and forth from “Linux for older computers” Facebook group (Alma =azrielle, e.g. ME, Bimo is a group moderator from Indonesia who has a thing for Wheezy based Galpon Minino Artabros 2.2, and an irritating prejudice against AntiX):

    Bimo i am just wondering, sir. is it possible to remove/uninstall several default applications displayed in the antiX menu, without breaking the whole OS ?
    some application names do not sound familiar to linux newcomers, compared to those in most debian/ubuntu-based distros.

    Kardiman There’s a reason why they call it anti X. you can do a lot with 1 gb. they didn’t mean anti christ. or do they?

    Alma Why would you want to remove default applications Bimo? They were picked for a reason. A few possibles come to mind:
    1) works well without SystemD
    2) light on resource usage, but function just as well as the more familiar ones
    3) works better with IceWM, JWM, and/or Fluxbox
    4) NONE of Linux application names are likely to “sound familiar to linux newcomers”!
    5) likely, the more familiar names require code libraries that would unnecessarily increase the size of the distro without a commensurate increase in functionality.

    Bimo it is in order to minimize the headache from the complaints by linux newcomers, sir. 😛

    Alma If they are truly NEWcomers, they would not know the applications in Ubuntu or Debian either.

    The list I came up with is off the top of my head, so to speak. But I am curious as to the REAL reasons for the AntiX developers’ choices of included applications. Over and above masinick’s succinct explanation:

    AntiX contains applications chosen, not by a desktop, instead chosen for size and efficiency.

    Acer V5-171 i5/3317u 12GB 11.6" MX17.1/Korora26/SolydX9/AntiX 17.1 Fluxbox/Win7SP1 500GB SSD
    Lenovo X131e i3/3227u 8GB 11.6" Parrot 4.01 Studio/AntiX 17.1 Fluxbox/Win7SP1 240GB SSD
    Acer AO D257 Atom/n570 2GB 10" MX17.1/AntiX 17.1 Fluxbox/Win7SP1 128GB SSD
    #10857
    Moderator
    masinick
    masinick

    First, the choices for antiX window manager definitely considered minimal resource consumption.

    The original window manager, Fluxbox, is extremely memory efficient.

    IceWM was added to offer a window manager that might be a little easier to get used to for recent Windows “converts”.

    JWM was added to bring in another reasonably easy to use window manager.

    “antiX also comes with herbstluftwm, a manual tiling window manager.”
    (Anti has become interested in this one).

    All are relatively modest in memory usage and CPU utilization, yet nicely functional.

    Rox file manager, SpaceFM, and the other alternatives are lightweight file managers with enough functionality for an old system. Some people prefer them to file managers that integrate with desktop systems because the desktop file managers, which include “objects” that “communicate” – and this infrastructure consumes all but the newest hardware. Examples: KDE with Dolphin, GNOME “Files” – Nautilus both integrate with desktops, but use a lot of resources to do so.

    Konsole is a nice KDE terminal emulator. Again it integrates with other KDE applications well, but the more it does so, the more resources are used.

    …and so it goes. The only HOGS in anti as far as resource consumption are modern Web browsers. The original antiX had dillo, links, etc., very small, simple tools that are still available today.

    I hope this is helpful.

    Brian Masinick

    #10907
    Member

    BobC

    I went through the like of XFCE Project Applications, and the one I don’t have covered with AntiX is the XFCE Power Manager, and since I run many laptops and few desktops, it is of interest to me. I did try it at some point a couple years ago, and will give it another go sometime…

    #10917
    Moderator
    masinick
    masinick

    I don’t know offhand exactly what is provided by the Xfce power manager, but it’s definitely a Xfce specific package group.

    Brian Masinick

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