Embarrassing translation regarding persistence in French

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  • This topic has 19 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated Feb 4-7:43 pm by marcelocripe.
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  • #50663
    Member
    AvatarWallon

    Dear developers,

    Concerns: Antix Full 19.3 – Wrong translation of the menu

    As you can see on the screenshot, there is twice the same translation for two softwares. I don’t use persistence because I don’t understand this concept. I don’t want to break my installation. If I’m trusting the English version, the red icon should be “Set up Persistence” and the purple icon should be “Configure Persistence”.
    “Set up Persitence” -> translation in French should be “Installer la persistance”
    “Configure Persistence” -> translation in French should be “Configurer la persistance”

    Best regards,
    Wallon

    #50669
    Forum Admin
    anticapitalistaanticapitalista

    Please register over at transifex and make the necessary changes. Otherwise, nothing will happen.
    Thanks.

    https://www.transifex.com/anticapitalista/antix-development/dashboard/

    Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

    antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

    #50733
    Member
    AvatarRobin

    Hello Wallon,

    the way of dealing with erroneous/odd/buggy translated text strings anticapitalista has pointed you to outmatches the way of posting these in forum first. After registering over there it is as easy to apply the correction directly as to post it here in most cases. So I also think, this is a really good suggestion.
    But when you like this idea, please be aware you should use standard french language. I have no knowledge whether Belgian french is very different from other country specific variants of french. In this case we would need to create an additional fr_BE version in transifex first, just like we have pt and pt_BR done as well. Whereas if the variants in french language are that similar as “de”, “de_DE”, “de_AT”, “de_CH” one doesn’t need this, and you can do all corrections directly in universal “fr”. By all means, since you are native french language speaker so you may assess this yourself best.

    But in this specific case I wasn’t able to locate the corresponding strings in transifex at all. Since it concerns “Main Menu” of antiX one would expect finding it inside a package with at least “menu” in its name. But in none of the matching packages the string you identified to be translated incorrect was to be found. (See screenshots attached). I’ve checked all of them. Maybe somebody else is able to find the string there. Any help appreciated.

    Robin

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Robin. Reason: missing word
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Robin.
    #50736
    Member
    XecureXecure
    #50738
    Member
    AvatarRobin

    Thank you very much, Xecure! But how did you manage to locate it? I didn’t notice a search function for strings before one has chosen a specific package in transifex, and it is obviously impossible to open and check them individually one by one.

    #50747
    Member
    marcelocripemarcelocripe
    #50749
    Member
    XecureXecure

    The antiX specific programs and scripts that appear in the “Applications” menus have a .desktop file associated to them, and most of their .desktop information (that need translating) can be found (in transifex) in a file name named “antix-all-desktop-entries”. When marcelo was also looking for the .desktop entries for translating to pt_BR is when I found it.

    I understand the logic of having this kind of information inside one file, so it is easier to manage for anticapitalista. And it is also easier for translator, as they can see in one file all the programs and are able to translate their name, so they don’t need to go around searching one program at a time.

    #50750
    Member
    AvatarRobin

    Thanks, marcelocripe, this package is one of those I had already checked (please refer to the first image I had attached above). My question is: Do we actually have to guess (or to know already) in which package a string might to be found, before it is searchable in transifex? In this case only a developer may find it, if the assumption normal user would venture in concern where it might to be found doesn’t strike. Since you can’t simply search the antiX system installed on your pc to fish out the correct package name containing the string in question, since all these are inside compiled .mo files. If I am not mistaken, you need exactly to know where the sting is located, before you will be able to find it in many cases.
    So my question to experienced translators/developers: Is this true, or am I mistaken again and was ignoring something important?

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Robin. Reason: wording corrected
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Robin.
    #50752
    Member
    AvatarRobin

    Xecure, you have been faster in answering as me, but your reply turned up here after I submitted my last one only.

    I understand the logic of having this kind of information inside one file, so it is easier to manage for anticapitalista. And it is also easier for translator

    This I consider to be true also, a good way things are organised. But I observed the last times I fixed some translations I mostly had to specuculate where they reside. Or does the package you mentioned cover all the programs and strings used in antiX? I don’t get the logical structure behind it, when is a string in there and when it has to be searched elsewhere. To decide this demands detailed knowledge about the entrails of antiX I think. Does there exist a way to find out besides pure guesswork?

    #50758
    Member
    XecureXecure

    A program with a launcher needs at least 2 files:
    – The program itself (it can be a compiled binary or a script), which would can be launched from the terminal.
    – The launcher, generally a .desktop file stored in /usr/share/applications.

    These are the minimum files required for a program that can be launched from the menus.

    If I want my script to be translated (the output messages), I prepare the script, as you have already done, and create a translations file fore each language. The translated file is ONLY related to the script, and only contains instructions to replace the original output strings for translated strings of text.
    Then, when the script launches, it will load the correct translation and replace the strings it needs for the script to be in the corresponding language of the system. This file is outsourced, and is a separate file to the original script (if this was not so, there would be a different script for each language, instead of only one script and multiple “translation instructions”).

    If I create a script myself (doesn’t matter if gui or cli), and I want people to be able to launch it from their applications menu, I need to create a .desktop file. This file contains the Exec (launch command), a Name, a Comment (very short description of the program), an Icon and a Category (in which submenu it needs to be categorized, like Accessories, Multimedia, Internet, System, etc.). There are more options but these are the most relevant.
    What people see before they launch your app are: Name, Description and Icon. The icon is a symbol, and doesn’t need translation, but the Name and description do. To translate this .desktop file, I don’t outsource it to different files, but add the translated lines directly inside of this .desktop file.

    Name=My script
    Name[de]=Mein Skript
    Name[fr]=Mon script
    Name[pt]=Meu script
    Comment=The most amazing script ever
    Comment[de]=Das erstaunlichste Drehbuch aller Zeiten
    Comment[fr]=Le script le plus étonnant de tous les temps
    Comment[pt]=O roteiro mais incrível de todos

    As you can see, creating a translation file for each language for only 2 lines is a bit… let’s say cumbersome.
    If we only have 1 script and want to translate it in transifex, if we don’t use the anticapitalista’s method, we would have to upload 2 file:
    my-script.po (contains the output strings to be translated for the program to have a translated interface)
    my-script-desktop.po (that only contains 2 lines, the Name and Comment).
    and upload 1 of each for every language.

    If instead you have 50 programs, you would be uploading 100 files for each language. You start to see the problem, many files with a similar name. Which should I translate first?

    If you want to at least have the .desktop entry translated, which is the first thing a user will see (or find, if searching in their own language), you got to prioritize this .desktop file. If we can get the translator to have a look at all the .desktop Name and Comment entries in one go, we can be a bit more efficient if all are in only one file. Anyone, even if they don’t have technical knowledge, can translate a name and short description, and have a feeling of accomplishment, of having helped bring at least this much to other users who speak the same language, instead of feeling overwhelmed by seeing tens of lines that seem to require a bit more technical knowledge to understand and produce a good translation.

    Maybe I am making things look more complicated than they are, but I feel that having all the simple Name and Comment strings in one file so they are translated in one go better than not having anything translated at all (which we can see many files like this in transifex).

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Xecure. Reason: removing tag "typo"
    #50763
    Member
    AvatarWallon

    Transifex is not free and too complex for me.

    #50772
    Forum Admin
    anticapitalistaanticapitalista

    You do not need to pay anything. Just register and start translating here:

    https://www.transifex.com/anticapitalista/antix-development/dashboard/

    Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

    antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

    #50773
    Member
    AvatarRobin

    Many thanks again for your explanations, Xecure. I’ll head for understanding the meaning of the structure you described concerning the way of finding a specific string he stumbles upon by accident, from the perspective of a user willing to help us improving translations.

    @Wallon: You have missed the correct signup, since joining transifex as a translator is for free:
    From FAQ:

    “Simply sign up for a free account here, pick the Translator role on the Welcome page, and you are ready to go!”

    And you’ll notice, it is really simple in use, in spite of my remarks above which I only posted in order to sort out all kind of difficulties for people like you: As you are a french native speaker your contribution is highly wellcome.
    In practice you’ll see on the left half of the page a list of strings, the right side is separated in upper and lower half again, the upper containing the original English string. Into the lower half on the right side you’ll enter your translation (or correct an inaccurate string already present). After you are done, just klick “save”. That’s all. I’m quite sure you will make it, really.

    Robin

    Edit: You have been faster in reply than me, anticapitalista. I do actually need way to long time writing in English language still…

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Robin. Reason: typo
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Robin.
    #50778
    Member
    marcelocripemarcelocripe

    Hello dear colleagues,

    Wallon and Robin,

    I had the support of Xecure and PPC in several doubts that arose when I started to operate the transifex. Even with all the explanations I received on various topics where the subject “translation” was inherent in the conversation, my difficulties are the same as described very well by Robin. In these topics, Xecure usually did something similar to what he did in this topic, explained in as much detail as possible. I think this is extremely important, because this way everyone can learn from the shared information.

    About my difficulties in using the transifex (initial difficulties and current difficulties) are:

    1 – Identify the context from which the translated text will be inserted.
    2 – In my language, for example the words “Fechar”, “Fechando”, “Fechado” are used for “Closed”, but depending on the context, they have different meanings and may be better adapted to “Encerrar”, or “Terminar”, or “Concluir”. It is not enough to translate, the message must be understood.
    3 – Few files I was able to identify alone by name what is in antiX (comment below)
    4 – Compare the translated text with the location that will be displayed in antiX.
    5 – After this check, correct the line breaks.

    The files I managed to identify with help or alone:

    antiX-cli-cc – CLI Control Center
    antixcc.pot – GUI Control Center
    apt-notifier – MX Updater, yes the original text is “MX”
    gazelle-installer – antiX installer
    icewm-toolbar-icon-manager.sh.pot – it’s TIM
    iso-snapshot – Operating System ISO Image Creator
    Package Installer – antiX Program Installer and Uninstaller
    unplugdrive.sh.pot – Removing the USB Device
    In addition to the URL files cited by Xecure and me.

    I recommend downloading all the translation files in your respective language, one by one, before editing online, as it has already happened to me that I have an error in the internet connection and the text is messy. After you have completed your edits, download again and save the files. Not long ago I had to redo the “icewm-toolbar-icon-manager.sh.pot”, when the developers sent the new file that includes the text “move toolbar icons” from PPC, all the text that it was ready it was lost, it was a waste of time, because the other texts were identical, what happened was the addition of text in the original English version.

    I’ll take the time to leave a question:

    How could we simulate the texts translated locally in each part of antiX so we can test to see if what was inserted in the transifex will be good or not in the available space?

    That is why I always ask for more space, in the text areas of the programs.

    In “android-device-usb-connect.pot”, for example, I needed to include the line break ” \n ” that does not exist in the original text, which in turn is much smaller than the text translated into pt_BR only for the text to be visually beautiful and aligned in the program. But I only managed to discover this, when I saw the “ugly” version without the line break being used in this important program that entered antiX 19.3 and the antiX 19.2 update, so I was able to return to the transifex website and correct it with the addition of line break. This experience made me review all the texts that require line breaks. I hope I got it right in the position that I inserted the line breaks.

    While I was preparing this text, Robin collaborated with more explanations. That’s really good!

    Wallon, remember to implement the cultured standard of your language.

    If you find blocked areas, return to this topic and report to the anti-capitalist.

    I hope this information can help you and I am glad that more people are getting involved in translating or correcting antiX translations.

    marcelocripe
    (Original text in Brazilian Portuguese)

    ———-

    Olá caros colegas,

    Wallon e Robin,

    Eu tive o apoio do Xecure e do PPC em várias dúvidas que foram surgindo quando eu comecei a operar o transifex. Mesmo com todas as explicações que eu recebi em diversos tópicos onde o assunto “tradução” era inerente à conversa, as minhas dificuldades são as mesmas descritas muito bem pelo Robin. Nestes tópicos, normalmente o Xecure fazia algo semelhante ao que fez neste tópico, explicava com o máximo de detalhes possível. Eu acho isso extremamente importante, pois desta forma todos podem aprender a partir da informação compartilhada.

    Sobre as minhas dificuldades no uso do transifex (dificuldades iniciais e dificuldades atuais) são:

    1 – Identificar o contexto de onde será inserido o texto traduzido.
    2 – No meu idioma, por exemplo as palavras “Fechar”, “Fechando”, “Fechado” são empregadas para “Closed”, mas dependendo do contexto, possuem os sentidos são diferentes e poderá melhor adaptado para “Encerrar”, ou “Terminar”, ou “Concluir”. Não basta traduzir, é preciso que a mensagem seja compreendida.
    3 – Poucos arquivos eu consegui identificar sozinho pelo nome o que é no antiX (comento abaixo)
    4 – Comparar o texto traduzido com o local que será exibido no antiX.
    5 – Após esta verificação, corrigir as quebras de linhas.

    O arquivos eu consegui identificar com ajuda ou sozinho:

    antiX-cli-cc – Centro de Controle CLI
    antixcc.pot – Centro de Controle GUI
    apt-notifier – MX Updater (Atualizador do MX), sim o texto original está “MX”
    gazelle-installer – Instalador do antiX
    icewm-toolbar-icon-manager.sh.pot – é o TIM
    iso-snapshot – Criador de Imagem ISO do Sistema Operacional
    Package Installer – Instalador e Desinstalador de Programas do antiX
    unplugdrive.sh.pot – Remover o Dispositivo USB
    Além dos arquivos da URL citada pelo Xecure e por mim.

    Eu recomendo baixar todos os arquivos de tradução do seu respectivo idioma, um a um, antes de fazer a edição on-line, pois já aconteceu comigo de dar erro na conexão com a internet e o texto ficar todo bagunçado. Depois que concluir as suas edições, baixe novamente e guarde os arquivos. Há pouco tempo atrás eu tive que refazer o “icewm-toolbar-icon-manager.sh.pot”, quando os desenvolvedores enviaram o novo arquivo que inclui o texto de “mover ícones da barra de ferramentas” do PPC, todo o texto que estava pronto foi perdido, foi um perda de tempo, pois os outros texto estavam idênticos, o que aconteceu foi o acréscimo de texto na versão original em Inglês.

    Eu vou aproveitar o momento para deixar uma dúvida:

    Como poderíamos simular os textos traduzidos localmente em cada parte do antiX para podermos testar para saber se o que foi inserido no transifex ficará bom ou não no espaço disponível?

    É por isso que eu peço sempre mais espaço, nas áreas de textos dos programas.

    No “android-device-usb-connect.pot”, por exemplo, eu precisei incluir a quebra de linha ” \n ” que não existe no texto original, que por sua vez, é muito menor do que o texto traduzido em pt_BR só para o texto ficar visualmente bonito e alinhado no programa. Mas eu só consegui descobrir isso, quando eu vi a versão “feia” sem a quebra de linha sendo utilizada neste importante programa que entrou no antiX 19.3 e na atualização do antiX 19.2, aí eu pude retornar ao site transifex e corrigir com o acréscimo da quebra de linha. Esta experiência me fez rever todos os textos que exigem quebras de linhas. Eu espero ter acertado na posição que inseri as quebras de linha.

    Enquanto eu preparava este texto o Robin colaborou com mais explicações. Isso é muito bom!

    Wallon, lembre-se de implementar a norma culta do seu idioma.

    Se você encontrar áreas bloqueadas, retorna neste tópico e informa ao anticapitalista.
     
    Eu espero que estas informações possam ajudá-los e eu fico contente que mais pessoas estão se envolvendo na tradução ou correções das traduções do antiX.

    marcelocripe
    (Texto original em Português do Brasil)

    #50789
    Member
    AvatarRobin

    How could we simulate the texts translated locally in each part of antiX so we can test to see if what was inserted in the transifex will be good or not in the available space?

    Exactly this is what I’m just working on over here, but you, Marcelo should have received a special version of the attached script translated to pt_BR per email already.

    Having been engaged in concerns of translation now for some time and seeing which type of erroneous and even bug causative translations can be found in transifex I learned how important it is to provide a way to evaluate the functionality and correct layout of translations before applying them. The first time I took notice of this circumstance was while working on my first approach to translation of community scripts here, which contains a deliberated way of testing translations in runtime This was long before gaining knowledge about the modern standard way utilising gettext and compiled .mo files instead. The valuable input other users and developers over there gave some insights and led me to the understanding of the problem not only applying to comuntity scripts but also to all our translation work we are facing in antiX. So once this antiX translation test suite will be ready for use we’ll hopefully have an easy to use way of testing freshly translated components as marcelocripe has demanded above. As said before: I’m working on this.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Robin.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Robin.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Robin.
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