Future antiX versions with FT10 as default?

[Forum Admin anticapitalista]

PPC’s FT10 transformation package is excellent.
It achieves its aim of making antiX more ‘modern’ and ‘familiar’ particularly to those used to Windows 10.
It’s not my ‘cup of tea’ though and I would remove it instantly.
So should future antiX default to Ft10 or keep its current set up?
Feel free to comment.

Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

[Member punranger]

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Confession: I haven’t tried it. And why should I? I appreciate antiX just as it is. I’ve learnt my way around the system. It has taken me some time, but I ‘ve learnt a lot along the way. And it’s really not hard to get the system working at a basic level. I don’t want something that behaves like Win 10. I want something that works, and is lean and mean.

This begs the question: What kind of needs should antiX really serve? I think that is up to the vision of the developers to create, and then up to the users to decide wether it is what they need.

No offense to the creator of FT10. It may be a great system. I just haven’t had the need.

A good idea may be to make it easily available to install in the package manager.

I vote to keep the current setup.

antiX linux: The best way to revive an old computer - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCTaUAP6sSg

[Forum Admin rokytnji]

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I run it on this shop desktop. I am back in icewm common right now. Only reason I was trouble shooting deb-installer from MX-Forums.

I’d include it in a full iso since we are dvd size anyways on the full iso download.
It is easy to change out of like other window managers in antiX from the menu.

So I am for it.

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[Moderator Brian Masinick]

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My personal opinion is that the tool is worthwhile, and it deserves a place in our repository, and perhaps a place in some “ease of use” tool that can be mentioned and called upon easily. However, since antiX is intended to be a light and nimble distribution first, much as I think it’s a useful tool for many people, I believe that providing a handy tool, either in the Personal, Preferences, antiX, or Control Center (one, NOT all of them), would be better than automatically including it, but only having it in the repo alone may be “too difficult: (at least initially) for a person who may already be attempting to digest a lot.

So my suggestion is to make it easy to locate and apply the tool, but not to make it the default.

I’m happy to go either way; FT10 is not an expensive tool with a lot of overhead.

--
Brian Masinick

[Member olsztyn]

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anticapitalista wrote:

It’s not my ‘cup of tea’ though and I would remove it instantly.

Exactly as in my case.
I appreciate it is possibly useful for some users though. And I appreciate the effort @PPC devoted to it.
I tried it once but after brief testing I fell back to the original base WM (IceWM and JWM).
This my note to to be construed as negative though. Just not my cup of tea…

Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
http://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

[Member Xunzi_23]

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I vote include
FT10 is very good for both new users and those looking for a more modern experience,
impressively near to a full desktop environment.

I think it would be good as a standard for the full version leaving the other alternatives
in the desktop selection menu as is.

For those who already have a fixed preference the desktop selection would be available on the login
screen so no difficulty in moving to a familiar environment should be expected.

[Member techore]

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My recommendation is to provide a FT10 meta package for the user to install. PPC can document its installation and configuration to facilitate its use.

Alternatively, provide an option to install it via minstall as a desktop environment (DE). Ideally, some standard would be developed to facilitate folks authoring and submitting their favorite DE or window manager (WM) for installing via minstall. A lot of other Linux distributions already do it. I am not naive, it not as simple as it sounds, but..

To be transparent, I use antiX core and only install antiX Base or Full to identify missing dependencies or files for antiX tools I want.

If FT10 is included, I would respectfully request no FT10 additions to antiX core.

edit: typo respectively –> respectfully

• This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by techore.

[Moderator BobC]

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I keep getting people that have windows experience wanting a Linux setup for old, no longer windows capable hardware. I’ve been installing FT10 for those to avoid having to make a list of changes.

Myself, I do run the standard version, but with the apps and keys setup as consistently as possible with my work windows system. For me that is a good setup. I could easily run FT10 day to day, but there are a few things that I use that are on the Standard menus, but not on the the FT10 grid. App select covers many/most, but for the terminal apps, maybe desktop entries could be created if people wanted them. I’d also want to widen the FT10 grid if it was reasonably easy to do to make room for a few more grid driven apps.

[Moderator christophe]

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I fall into the category of having tried it and see the value of it, but I prefer the other WMs. (I’m not a Windows fan.)
How would this work? Would it be a problem for people to undo it?
Would/could it be a separate window manager option selectable from the list of other WMs from the root menu? (Maybe built on top of another WM out of the box, so it could be switched to/away from, like the other WMs in the menu or at the login manager?)
I DO like to switch things up every now and then, using different WMs for a while…

• This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by christophe.
• This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by christophe.

confirmed antiX frugaler, since 2019

[Moderator BobC]

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Basically it adds JGMenu and a Tint2 panel to use instead of using Fluxbox or IceWM’s menu and panel. It does not include a Window Manager.

If I recall it works with either the Fluxbox WM or IceWM, but I don’t think it works with JWM, and not sure if it could or not.

PPC created scripts to enable and configure it, as well as one to disable it. It also includes a trash icon for zzzfm as well as adding bookmarks and changing some zzzfm default settings to work more consistently with a typical windows file managers.

The menu options for it appear on the Preferences menu under IceWM. When you left click the main menu button you get the FT10 JGMenu, and when you right click it you get antiX’s IceWM menu, so you don’t actually lose the other menus.

[Member PPC]

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Hi, all

First, I would like to thank @anticapitalista for is opinion about FT10 – one can appreciate something as being good at what it is and still not think it fits one tastes.

I was on the fence if I should post on this thread or not, because some may think that my opinion on this subject is not “detached”…

Clarifying a few things:
Edit: FT10 for those of you that have no idea what FT10 is, please visit it’s “web page”, where you can see a picture of one of it’s default looks (and also a short video about how to to install and configure it, created by BobC)- http://gitlab.com/antix-contribs/ft10-transformation/-/blob/main/README.md

– FT10, like Bob summed up, is mainly applying a customized tint2 toolbar (and disabling the default toolbar of the Window Manager that it was enabled in). It also provides some scripts to extend antiX’s capabilities (like a Trash can and extra bookmarks in ZZZfm, easy connection to Shared Folders, a basic GUI calendar with events, World Clock, Alarms, Timers, Weather, News, a GUI to install .deb packages off-line, etc). FT10 does not change your default File Manager, but the File Manager icons provided in the Menu and Toolbar launch Zzzfm.
– FT10 does not mess with antiX default menu – it’s still there if you right click an empty space in your desktop, I even took the care of finding a way to provide access to the default antiX menu if you right click tint2’s “Start button”.
– FT10 was created to run on top of IceWM, Fluxbox and even JWM, I also provide a script (that you can access from the Preferences menu, to disable all changes that FT10 performs – the one problematic thing is that you may have to enable volumeicon on your default toolbar, if you haven’t done so inside FT10’s “enable” window). The “disable” script was tested on all 3 default floating window managers, but it may have some problems that I did not detect- since Xecure left, it’s basically a “one man show” (plus the folks that help localize it, many thanks to them- a lot of localization fixes are waiting to be implemented, sorry for that)
– FT10 name may imply that it tries to make antiX look like Windows 10 (or 11, that came out after FT10)- it does not try to do that, not exactly- what it does is that is uses some modern User Interface (UI) elements that most users of modern computers expect to be present in any OS- like fully searchable menus, previews if running windows, the ability to easily pin your favourite to the menu, etc. If you set up FT10 with the “Tiled menu” and then use the “Manage Favourites” option available in the menu to disable the “Tiles”, you get something that looks pretty much like an improved version of Windows 11 menu – and FT10 had that feature even before that OS came out. I also implemented a “Weather App” available in the toolbar, even before, it seems, Windows did the same… It convergence of User eXperience (UX) – because both I and the folks at MS think that we know what users may expect/need/like to see on their interface.
FT10 may be configured to resemble Windows 10 or even some KDE default setting. It never tries to copy/mimic any other interface, to fool the user. It tries to make antiX easier to user, for regular computer users.

So, should “future antix versions come with FT10 as default”?
I think not, at leat not “enabled” by default. I can easily add entries to the “Desktop” menu in the default antiX menu, so you can “Enable/Disable FT10 toolbar and menu” for the current Window Manager- giving a couple of extra choices to users… But the people that need FT10 the most are basic computer users, that want a ready to use system, they do not want to have to perform any change – they want/need it ready to run…

I think that the best way to make future antiX versions more “user friendly” is trying to implement some of my suggestions (over at the antiX-23 thread), and even a couple more of them, but keeping the default IceWM as the main interface.

The best way, in my opinion, to provide a nice, conformable and “modern” UI to users that need it, would be a new antiX version (64bits, Full, sysv) with FT10 already installed and enabled – I’m testing an ISO that would, when in Live mode, always pop up the FT10 enable window, letting the user choose the kind of menu he/she wants to use. Once installed, antiX would always start with that setup (if the user chooses the option to install and keep changes, if not, when the installed version of antiX is run for the first time, the user has to select the interface what will be used by default, from then on).

P.

Edit2: I attach a screenshot of FT10’s Category menu (in portuguese) and part of Zzfm, running on my home PC

• This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by PPC.
• This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by PPC.
• This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by PPC.

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[Member madibi]

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Allow me to insert my opinion as an enthusiastic user of antiX, even if I still consider myself a newcomer.

My experience in the last year is that in all the PCs that I have recovered for my friends who had Vista or W7, I have installed FT10. Most have only asked me for help with updates, but I can say that they have all been fine.

I also gave away for free 5 old desktops to students who had to study in “smart schooling”. To the kids I also offered the MacOS look as an alternative (with JWM): 3 out of 5 preferred this second option.
To the others I installed FT10.

MY REASONING

I am convinced that FT10 is a wonderful tool to bring the big world of computer users closer to Linux in the first instance and to antiX in particular.

If you interview many PC end users, the vast majority think that Linux is more difficult just because it’s different.
The above applies less to MacOS users, mainly because many of them are forced to work under Win as well, so they are more open to switching OSes.

One of the main reasons that push people to try Linux lies in the EOL of the various editions of WIN, or in the programmed obsolescence programs of the PCs by MS.

Finally, the main claim of Linux which says <<with linux we rejuvenate your PCs>> is less and less true for many distros.

In the context of the previous premises it must be considered that antiX is less user friendly in comparison with other distros.
On the other hand it is much more efficient in terms of performance and use of computer resources.

With FT10 for some magical reason there is no heaviness in the use of PC resources, on the other hand you can access many utilities that simplify users’ lives. This in addition to the graphics and the position of the programs that is very reminiscent of win10.

So my vote is YES, it should not only be included, but also advertised as an important option of the program: THE LIGHTEST IN A GRAPHIC FRIENDLY ENVIRONMENT

Last note

I remember that a few years ago Zorin offered a win look for free, and to get a MacOS look, he charged a few dollars.
May be that offering the MacOS look option too can be another good marketing idea.

I’m not able to do it, but perhaps an automation that allows you to have a familiar environment even for ex Mac users could be an idea to consider.
In my HOWTO on this topic the operations to be done are < 10, so i imagine that the relevant automation should not be difficult.

Thanks for your attention 🙂

m

[Member Robin]

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I support PPCs opinion not to make it the default in antiX.

But I believe it would be great as an hotswitchable option, like all the other desktops from the “antiX” → “Desktops” → “Additional desktops” menu.
Best would be users should be able to simply click on an FT-10 entry present there to switch to it:

http://i.imgur.com/tYeJY0N.jpg

My reasons:

I beleive there are at least as much users not using or wanting antiX to look or feel like Windows as users wanting it to have that way. If we don’t want to split the comunity of users into two, we need to have the design switchable, not forcing one of the two on them.

Why should FT-10 not set up as default? Well, very easy explained. FT-10 is a set-on-top of the other desktops, not vice versa. So it delivers and provides some additional features and functions, different ways of user interaction. If this would be the default in antiX, in the consequence future development and future scripts will probably rely on the presence of FT-10, and not being able to run without it on the other desktops. This would be very bad. Only way to avoid this concequence is to treat FT-10 as what it is: A set-on-top desktop, users can switch to (or even boot with, it can be added to F7 boot menu also as a desktop option users can boot to). So FT-10 can take care of all needed adaptions itself when needed, just following its concept.

To put int in a nutshell, my advice: Include it as a switchable desctop selection into antiX full iso, but please don’t make it the default desktop. I believe we should stick to the default desktop we recently have, which can be a great base for whatever directions of set-on-top flavours as FT-10. Maybe somebody else provides an Apple-style like transformation pack, or whatever. Or somebody invents a completely new concept of look and feel, who knows. All this can be done only when the default in antiX doesn’t predetermine a specific set-on-top.

—–
@PPC : Obviously I’m not allowed to answer to your PM for some reason: “You do not have permission to send reply to this message!”. So here my answer: You could set the aCSTV package simply as a dependency in your FT-10 package, then it will get installed along with by default it if you want to have it included and integrated in some way. Instead, If you’d include the complete package as a duplicate into yours, it will be difficult to keep track of updates, and the packages will conflict. So the direct inclusion of package content into your package is not a good idea, while there are no objections to add a dependency to it once it is available from the repos.

Windows is like a submarine. Open a window and serious problems will start.

[Member marcelocripe]

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Hello everybody.

Feel free to comment.

I’d like to start by thanking the creator and leader of antiX Linux for always wanting to listen. On how many GNU/Linux distributions does the leader or leaders ask the community’s opinion?

PPC’s FT10 transformation package is excellent.
It achieves its aim of making antiX more ‘modern’ and ‘familiar’ particularly to those used to Windows 10.

This is an undeniable fact, when an end user new to antiX does not immediately adapt to the various “aesthetic” and “behavioral” options available in antiX, FT10 fulfills its main objective is to make the antiX something “modern” and “familiar”. For those people who only know Windows, as if this operating system only existed on planet Earth, FT10 “cushions” the impact of the transition from a slow operating system to a fast and stable operating system that is antiX Linux.

It’s not my ‘cup of tea’ though and I would remove it instantly.

I think this anticapitalista quote reflects reality very well for most experienced antiX users or active users of this forum. That is, being in antiX or not, it won’t make any difference to us.

So should future antiX default to Ft10 or keep its current set up?

I don’t know if the information was lost in automatic translation, but I would like the anticapitalist to make it very clear to all people which antiX ISO (or which antiX ISOs) it intends to use FT10 as the default on boot. Without this information, we will see people using core or net ISOs saying that they don’t want FT10, and for these ISOs and for these users, FT10 doesn’t make any difference, because they build antiX from the “black screen” from Terminal.

I assume that the intention is to use the full antiX ISO, if that is the intention, I fully agree that the FT10 is available in the menu to be activated or not by the end user. This way we prevent some people from complaining in this thread or the other antiX-23 – based on Debian 12 Bookworm – ideas that ROX-IceWM is no longer the default. But the people who “complain” know very well how to change the window manager or window manager + file manager combination, with two clicks or a command in Terminal.

We have to think about the following situation, either the community grows or it inevitably ends. If there are no new antiX users, inevitably the experienced antiX users will one day die, as this is the only certainty we have in life. Simply put, we can’t get away from it…

Even after the detailed explanations of PPC in several threads and including here about the FT10, I still see some people looking at themselves and not the other. Or that you have never used the FT10, but have your opinion ready and then say “no”.

While the majority of active people on the forum have learned something new since they started using antiX, unfortunately, there are people who are unwilling or unwilling to learn something new (whether due to lack of free time, lack of interest or laziness ). Much of this is what I call “the consequences of the comfort zone created by Microsoft”, the user becomes dependent (on the operating system), but doesn’t even realize it and anything different becomes a “trauma”. If a toolbar, two first-level menu options, two-click Recycle Bin settings, and various other programs that complete FT10 can increase the number of antiX users, I’d vote “yes” for the full ISO of antiX (at least it’s available in the options menu). The full ISO size won’t get huge because of the FT10, in case that’s anyone’s concern.

As I already wrote some time ago, I am an antiX Linux multiplier here in Brazil. Every now and then we have a new Brazilian participant here on the forum, most of them are monoglots, just like I am. antiX increasingly translated to pt-BR and FT10 make an excellent impression in the eyes of people who receive antiX from the installations that I do on their computers.

What Madibi wrote is very similar to what happens here in Brazil, if the patterns and themes available in antiX don’t “please” the end user’s eyes, certainly FT10 will and I see that happening here frequently.

Before being against FT10, I suggest you do a test on a LiveUSB without persistence, put yourself in the shoes of a novice user who has never seen antiX before and who is seeing antiX for the first time with FT10.

Note: I do not consider any of the antiX users actively participating here in this forum to be end users.

Anticapitalista, I thank you for allowing us to express our opinions and suggestions.

marcelocripe
(Original text in Brazilian Portuguese language)

– – – – –

Olá a todos.

Feel free to comment.

Eu gostaria de iniciar agradecendo ao criador e líder do antiX Linux por sempre querer nos ouvir. Em quantas distribuições GNU/Linux que o líder ou os líderes perguntam a opinião da comunidade?

PPC’s FT10 transformation package is excellent.
It achieves its aim of making antiX more ‘modern’ and ‘familiar’ particularly to those used to Windows 10.

Este é um fato inegável, quando um usuário final recém chegado no antiX não se adapta imediatamente as diversas opções “estéticas” e “comportamentais” disponíveis no antiX, o FT10 cumpre o seu objetivo principal é que tornar o antiX algo “moderno” e “familiar”. Para aquelas pessoas que só conhecem o Windows, como se só existisse este sistema operacional no planeta Terra, o FT10 “amortece” o impacto da transição de um sistema operacional lento para um sistema operacional rápido e estável que é o antiX Linux.

It’s not my ‘cup of tea’ though and I would remove it instantly.

Eu acho que esta frase do anticapitalista reflete muito bem a realidade para a maioria dos usuários experientes do antiX ou dos frequentadores ativos deste fórum. Ou seja, estando no antiX ou não, não fará diferença alguma para nós.

So should future antiX default to Ft10 or keep its current set up?

Eu não sei se a informação foi perdida na tradução automática, mas eu gostaria que o anticapitalista deixasse bem claro para todas as pessoas em qual ISO do antiX (ou quais ISOs do antiX) se pretende utilizar o FT10 como padrão na inicialização. Sem esta informação, veremos as pessoas que utilizam as ISOs core ou net dizendo que não querem o FT10, sendo que para estas ISOs e para estes usuários, o FT10 não faz diferença alguma, porque eles constroem o antiX a partir da “tela preta” do Terminal.

Eu suponho que a intenção seja utilizar na ISO full do antiX, se for esta a intenção, eu concordo plenamente que o FT10 esteja disponivel no menu para ser ativado ou não pelo usuário final. Desta forma, evitamos que algumas pessoas reclamem neste tópico ou no outro antiX-23 – based on Debian 12 Bookworm – ideas de que o ROX-IceWM não seja mais o padrão. Mas as pessoas que “reclamam” sabem muito bem como alterar o gerenciador de janelas ou a combinação gerenciador de janelas + gerenciador de arquivos, com dois cliques ou um comando no Terminal.

Nós temos que pensar a seguinte situação, ou a comunidade cresce ou inevitavelmente acabará. Se não houver novos usuários do antiX, inevitavelmente os usuários experientes do antiX um dia morrerão, pois esta é a única certeza que temos na vida. Simplismente, não temos como fugir disso…

Mesmo após as explicações detalhadas do PPC em vários tópicos e inclusive aqui sobre o FT10, eu ainda vejo algumas pessoas olhando para si e não para o outro. Ou que nunca utilizou o FT10, mas possui a sua opinião pronta e logo diz “não”.

Enquanto a maioria das pessoas ativas no fórum aprendeu alguma coisa nova desde que começou a utilizar o antiX, infelizmente, existem pessoas que não querem ou não estão dispostas a aprender algo novo (seja por falta de tempo livre, ou por falta interesse ou por preguiça). Muito disso é o que eu chamo de “as consequências da zona de conforto criada pela Microsoft”, o usuário se torna um dependente (do sistema operacional), mas nem percebe isso e qualquer coisa diferente, se torna um “trauma”. Se uma barra de ferramentas, duas opções do menu do primeiro nível, as configurações da Lixeira pronta com apenas dois cliques e vários outros programas que completam o FT10 possa aumentar o número de usuários do antiX, eu voto em “sim” para a ISO full do antiX (ao menos estar disponível no menu de opções). O tamanho da ISO full não ficará enorme por causa do FT10, caso seja a preocupação de alguém.

Como eu já escrevi há algum tempo atrás, eu sou um multiplicador do antiX Linux aqui no Brasil. Vez ou outra temos um novo participante Brasileiro aqui no fórum, na sua maioria são monoglotas, assim como eu sou. O antiX cada vez mais traduzido para pt-BR e o FT10 causam uma excelente impressão aos olhos das pessoas que recebem o antiX a partir das instalações que eu faço nos seus computadores.

O que o Madibi escreveu é muito semelhante ao que ocorre aqui no Brasil, se os padrões e os temas disponíveis no antiX não “agradam” aos olhos do usuário final, certamente o FT10 agradará e eu vejo isso acontecendo aqui com frequência.

Antes de ser contra ao FT10, eu sugiro que você faça um teste em um LiveUSB sem persistência, coloque se no lugar de um usuário iniciante que nunca viu o antiX antes e que esteja vendo pela primeira vez o antiX com o FT10.

Observação: Eu não considero nenhum dos usuários do antiX que participam de forma ativa aqui neste fórum como usuários finais.

Anticapitalista, eu agradeço por você nos permitir expressarmos as nossas opiniões e sugestões.

marcelocripe
(Texto original em idioma Português do Brasil)

[Member olsztyn]

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Robin wrote:

Why should FT-10 not set up as default? Well, very easy explained. FT-10 is a set-on-top of the other desktops, not vice versa. So it delivers and provides some additional features and functions, different ways of user interaction. If this would be the default in antiX, in the consequence future development and future scripts will probably rely on the presence of FT-10, and not being able to run without it on the other desktops. This would be very bad. Only way to avoid this concequence is to treat FT-10 as what it is: A set-on-top desktop, users can switch to (or even boot with, it can be added to F7 boot menu also as a desktop option users can boot to). So FT-10 can take care of all needed adaptions itself when needed, just following its concept.
To put int in a nutshell, my advice: Include it as a switchable desctop selection into antiX full iso, but please don’t make it the default desktop. I believe we should stick to the default desktop we recently have

Thank you @Robin!
If anticapitalista decides to add FT10 to antiX I hope it will be as a ‘fifth windows manager’ choice, not default IceWM or Fluxbox. However, if on the contrary, it ends up as a ‘standard’ modification on top of IceWM or Fluxbox, please ensure a clear option to cleanly remove it completely, not just an option to ‘disable’ FT10.

Just to further clarify/summarize this concept if antiX must include FT10 by default:
– Make FT10 modified Ice/Flux as the Fifth WM, leaving the current pure Ice, Flux and JWM alone as they are.
– Clear option to Cleanly and Completely remove such FT10 modified desktop option, not touching any existing Ice or Flux.

In case it ends up as not such Fifth option but just a modification on top of existing Ice or Flux, then:
– Please ensure a visible and easy option to cleanly and completely remove all modifications, not just ‘Disable’ option as mentioned by @PPC in the preceding post.
– Please leave JWM alone, separate and untouched by any modification
– Please ensure that at least uninstallation of IceWM and Fluxbox would also completely remove all FT10 modifications and all related files from antiX. This would leave just JWM and Herbsluftwm in their original and untouched form.

• This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by olsztyn.
• This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by olsztyn.

Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
http://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

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