Future antiX versions with FT10 as default?

Forum Forums antiX-development Development Future antiX versions with FT10 as default?

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  • This topic has 49 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated Feb 26-10:23 am by salvuzzo.
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  • #96255
    Member
    punranger

      “In the context of the previous premises it must be considered that antiX is less user friendly in comparison with other distros.
      On the other hand it is much more efficient in terms of performance and use of computer resources.”

      I think this is 100% true. I also think that it’s impossible to make a system that is 100% user friendly AND more efficient. If you want to make something that’s 100% user friendly, you have to factor in the user’s expectations, which probably would mean something that’s easy for Windows users to adjust to. I tried a number of distros before settling on antiX. A few were easy to adjust to, but too inefficient. A few CLAIMED to be efficient and “lightweight”, but they were still too inefficient. To me, antiX really hit that sweet spot, where the system was REALLY efficient, but the learning curve was not too steep. In fact, I would accept a slightly steeper learning curve. When a tool is this good, plus it is FREE, you better invest some time to learn how to use it properly.

      antiX linux: The best way to revive an old computer - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCTaUAP6sSg

      #96259
      Member
      marcelocripe

        For the record, I really enjoyed Robin and Olsztyn’s suggestions and ideas for implementing FT10. In other words, if the FT10 enters the ISO of antiX full, it should not change the options that already exist in antiX, be it the window manager or the window manager + file manager combination. I hope this is possible to be implemented in the antiX full ISO.
        At no point do I suggest including FT10 in the base ISO (despite FT10 being minuscule in size), not least because I don’t know how it will be possible to keep a version of antiX fit on CD media.

        – – – – –

        Só para constar, eu gostei muito das sugestões e ideias do Robin e do Olsztyn para a implementação do FT10. Em outras palavras, se o FT10 entrar na ISO do antiX full, não deverá alterar as opções já existentes no antiX, seja do gerenciador de janelas ou da combinação gerenciador de janelas + gerenciador de arquivos. Eu espero que isso seja possível de ser implementado na ISO do antiX full.
        Em nenhum momento eu sugiro a inclusão do FT10 na ISO base (apesar do FT10 ser minúsculo em seu tamanho), até porque, eu não sei como será possível manter uma versão do antiX cabendo em uma mídia de CD.

        #96261
        Moderator
        caprea

          So should future antiX default to Ft10

          Of course not. The way antiX has configured and offers the different window managers is IMO the best starting point for a lightweight and highly configurable system.
          The ft10 transformation is a nice addition if you like the windows look and might feel really lost at first.An addition to the “Other Desktops” section in the menu, in an antiX-full version, is something that could be imagined.

          #96263
          Moderator
          BobC

            I see FT10 as a different menu/panel mode, not a different desktop, or different desktop option.

            FT10 is more of a “Comfort mode – Easy to use Grid Menus and panel” where the desktop is tuned so normal folks who have limited computer experience can just do the normal daily tasks they typically need to do without needing to learn too many things unrelated to using the computer to do normal tasks for school, work or home. Think like you are asking your Mom or Dad or a friend who isn’t really computer savvy to get it running and use it. Its not their fault MS has left them in a lurch with functional hardware and no good OS to run on it.

            I think anticapitalista is right that the system needs to default to the easier setup so that anyone capable of downloading and burning a flashdrive can operate it without too much frustration or complexity. The issue with the current setup is that most of the people who need simplicity to get rolling are probably giving up, without ever figuring out how to set it up so they can use it comfortably. The only way to solve that is to make the easier setup the default. I know that when I’m trying out a new distro, I expect things to work pretty quickly, and without a lot of frustration. If not, I just move on. Watch some of the video reviews. Will they figure it out or get frustrated?

            The rest of us techies can easily find and click the option to turn it off as long as its easily accessible and clearly labeled. I think a 2nd menu mode “Experienced mode – Standard window manager menus and panel setup” would be good. Give those who prefer the built in menus and toolbars we have currently a quick way to switch it back to current “normal”.

            I don’t think we should try to dictate to the Developers that they should or should not touch anything. Where would we be today if someone had decided that 10 years ago? Is everything as good as it ever can be, now?

            I think the current FT10 components are well tested and should be included so that no additional installs are needed. If after more testing we find there are things just having FT10 installed causes troubles that can’t easily be avoided, maybe we could provide for disabling them by commenting them out of .desktop-session/startup, similar to the volumeicon.

            Just my 2 cents worth of opinion…

            #96264
            Member
            olsztyn

              I think the current FT10 components are well tested and should be included so that no additional installs are needed. If after more testing we find there are things just having FT10 installed causes troubles that can’t easily be avoided, maybe we could provide for disabling them by commenting them out of .desktop-session/startup, similar to the volumeicon.

              Just as I read this it confirms my worry about FT10 being permanently piled on top of Ice and Flux and it will become a matter of ‘disabling’ it if one wants to return to just Ice or Flux… Then what happens if you install a new version of Ice or Flux from a repo? Retest all integration of FT10 whether still works or needs to be re-integrated again?

              Just for the record, I am not against FT10 at all and I trust it can be useful to some users. I am not even totally against making this FT10-modified Ice or Flux a new antiX default desktop in the Full edition. But for a clean architecture it must be a completely separate ‘Fifth’ desktop as FT-Ice or FT-Flux default desktop, leaving the actual Ice and Flux completely intact. FT-Ice as a separate WM package in repo, so it does not in any way affect these original WMs, which should remain in their separate configuration and separate look and feel and separately managed. This way anyone can flip to any of the five desktops via ‘Other desktops’ and safely return his favorite default.
              Just ‘Disable FT10’ option makes me really worry as it does not guarantee removing all FT10 components and returning to previous configuration of Ice or Flux.

              I think anticapitalista is right that the system needs to default to the easier setup so that anyone capable of downloading and burning a flashdrive can operate it without too much frustration or complexity.

              If this is in fact what anticapitalista wants (I am not sure of this) then a FIFTH desktop FT10-Ice or FT10-Flux as default desktop of antiX Full would solve.
              Then by default booting antiX Full would boot to FT1-Ice. I am fine with this as long as it is a completely separate desktop from existing Ice or Flux. Then removing such FT10-Ice in Synaptic or Apt must remove just that desktop and all related files, but not touch the actual Ice.
              This might be the solution that would make everyone happy… But again, please remember such uninstall must be Clean and Complete along with all related files and configurations, not a mysterious ‘Disable’ feature…

              • This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by olsztyn.

              Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
              http://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

              #96266
              Moderator
              christophe

                My favorite ideas to “transform” ft10 into its own wm-setup out of the box (like olsztyn wrote).

                I like my 4 WMs in antiX as they are.

                What about expecting a little bit from the user?

                confirmed antiX frugaler, since 2019

                #96270
                Member
                calciumsodium

                  Hello,
                  For me, my preference is that FT10 should NOT be set as default. I tried it, and it is not for me. I like the simplicity and efficiency of the current default setup.
                  Thanks.

                  #96271
                  Member
                  techore

                    we will see people using core or net ISOs saying that they don’t want FT10, and for these ISOs and for these users, FT10 doesn’t make any difference, because they build antiX from the “black screen” from Terminal.

                    I am not taking your statement personally, but I do want to call out even on antix-core you will find configuration files pertaining to other window managers and applications, e.g. /etc/skel.

                    Not arguing and you make an excellent point. Much appreciated.

                    #96279
                    Moderator
                    BobC

                      The reality is that most normal people just take the defaults and expect things to be nice, and work. We should try to live up to that expectation, and still give Power Users control if they want it.

                      I see three obvious options:
                      1. A separate FT10 .iso
                      2. An added desktop and make FT10 the default
                      3. A Comfort vs Experienced mode selection at first time run (Comfort mode only allowed if the current selected desktop supports it)

                      The point is the user probably is a candidate for Comfort mode if they don’t know one window manager from another. At that point, they are expecting us to choose, so choose something easy for them. But when someone wants JWM, they also should easily be able to select it.

                      I’m just voicing my own opinion from what I’ve seen people happy with over the years.

                      #96287
                      Member
                      Xunzi_23

                        Interesting thread, two groups,

                        forward looking. And have direct experience with introducing, coaching and supporting new users.

                        And those repeatingly posting, afraid of losing there supposed superiority in that they profess to have mastered
                        the usage.

                        Had they mastered the system they would have no fear of breakage or change. just quietly return to that with which
                        they feel comfortable.

                        With that group of thinking we would still be in pre stone age.

                        I side very much with Bob C Marcelo, Cripe, obviously sadly missed skidoo and others that see the danger of antiX remaining
                        static, waiting for demise.

                        Reading through many hundreds of older forum posts shows which group has helped to make antiX what it is, among the best of the best.
                        Now another incrimental improvement can put it up another few notches in the direction of user friendliness.

                        I hope it goes that way.

                        #96292
                        Member
                        madibi

                          And those repeatingly posting, afraid of losing there supposed superiority in that they profess to have mastered
                          the usage.

                          This comment is positioned between “the ungenerous” and “the offensive” area, towards all those who daily offer their time and their knowledge.

                          All of them are generous and try to be kind in accordance with their competencies and human characteristics which may be different from yours and mine.

                          However, I agree on your interpretation of the answers: someone answer on what they themselves are interested in,while others answer on the basis of what they consider useful for a greater diffusion of antiX, especially on those less expert on the use of computers.

                          The problem that anticapitalista posed to the group is really very complex, because to maintain the balance between the antiX friendliness and heaviness is looking like an oxymoron. The transformation of Ubuntu is there for all to see – born in 2005, now it is probably the most well known linux distro, and now it is transformed in something very far from what I think linux should be. I think this is a case history to be avoided.

                          The magic created by PPC with FT10 consists precisely in having added functions without weighing on the system.

                          kind regards
                          m

                          #96294
                          Member
                          blur13

                            Who is this mythological “novice” computer user that has enough interest and prowess to research and find out about Linux, and antiX in particular, download an iso, “burn” it to a usb stick, install it on hardware (probably having to disable and alter a few settings in the BIOS first), but gets stumped when the start menu and panel doesnt mimic the windows operating system they expressly tried to get away from?

                            Having gotten that far, the leap to “sudo apt install FT10” isnt that great.

                            #96295
                            Member
                            marcelocripe

                              I am not taking your statement personally,

                              Please, I ask you and everyone else to never take it personally.
                              I read the reverse machine translation of the English text into Brazilian Portuguese and noticed that many details of my original text were lost in the machine translation. I imagine that some texts in automatic translation from Brazilian Portuguese to English are too “hard” or “coarse”, as I sometimes receive in automatic translation from English to Brazilian Portuguese.

                              …but I do want to call out even on antix-core you will find configuration files pertaining to other window managers and applications, e.g. /etc/skel.

                              I appreciate you letting us know about this important detail. I didn’t know that, because I don’t consider myself to be able to build from core or net ISOs. Just my guess: Are these files in the /etc/skel folder going to be useful when the user installs one of the standard antiX window managers on the core or net ISOs?

                              I hope that everyone can understand, even if it’s through machine translation texts, that my support for FT10 is with the focus on the newcomer to antiX and that nothing that already exists is lost. I don’t want to miss out on all the different desktop options available with the window manager (only) or window manager + file manager combination settings. I agree with all the people who don’t want antiX to become a bad distribution (slow and with constant crashes), but antiX needs to adapt to receive new users at different levels of computer knowledge (which was already very well exemplified by BobC, PPC, Madibi, etc).

                              Has anyone here been through other GNU/Linux distributions where the forum is not user friendly?
                              Where do veteran forum members not help beginners?
                              Where is the distribution not suitable for GNU/Linux beginners?

                              I ask this, because these were exactly my bad experiences before arriving here on the antiX forum.

                              Then, one must wonder: What does this have to do with the FT10?

                              It has everything to do with it, because we have a friendly forum here, forum veterans help beginners and an excellent GNU/Linux distribution that with a little study becomes very easy to operate. But, with FT10 the aesthetic presentation will create a positive effect of antiX in the eyes of those people who are having their first contact with a GNU/Linux, in addition to giving the impression that the person already knows the operating system from somewhere.

                              – – – – –

                              I am not taking your statement personally,

                              Por favor, eu peço a você e a todas as pessoas para nunca levarem para o lado pessoal.
                              Eu li a tradução automática reversa do texto em Inglês para o Português do Brasil e percebi que muitos detalhes do meu texto original foi perdido na tradução automática. Eu imagino que alguns textos da tradução automática do idioma Português do Brasil para o Inglês sejam muito “duros” ou “grosseiros”, assim como eu recebo as vezes na tradução automática do idioma Inglês para o Português do Brasil.

                              …but I do want to call out even on antix-core you will find configuration files pertaining to other window managers and applications, e.g. /etc/skel.

                              Eu agradeço por você nos informar sobre este detalhe importante. Eu não sabia disso, porque não me considero ser capaz de construir a partir das ISOs core ou net. Apenas uma suposição minha: Por acaso estes arquivos da pasta /etc/skel serão úteis quando o usuário instalar um dos gerenciadores de janelas padrões do antiX nas ISOs core ou net?

                              Eu espero que todos possam compreender, mesmo que através dos textos da tradução automática, que o meu apoio ao FT10 é com o foco no usuário iniciante no antiX e que nada do que já existe seja perdido. Eu não quero perder todas as diversas opções disponíveis de área de trabalho com as configurações gerenciador de janelas (somente) ou da combinação gerenciador de janelas + gerenciador de arquivos. Eu concordo com todas as pessoas que não querem que o antiX se torne uma distribuição ruim (lenta e com travamentos constantes), mas o antiX precisa se adaptar para receber novos usuários em diferentes níveis de conhecimento de informática (que já foi muito bem exemplificado pelo BobC, PPC, Madibi, etc).

                              Alguém aqui passou por outras distribuições GNU/Linux onde o fórum não é amigável?
                              Onde os integrantes veteranos do fórum não ajudam os iniciantes?
                              Onde a distribuição não é indicada para os iniciantes no GNU/Linux?

                              Eu pergunto isso, porque estas foram exatamente as minhas experiências ruins antes de chegar aqui no fórum do antiX.

                              Aí, alguém deve se perguntar: O que isto tem haver com o FT10?

                              Tem tudo a ver, pois temos aqui um fórum amigável, os veteranos do fórum ajudam os iniciantes e uma distribuição GNU/Linux excelente que com um pouco de estudo se torna muito fácil de operar. Mas, com o FT10 a apresentação estética irá criar um efeito positivo do antiX aos olhos daquelas pessoas que estão tendo o primeiro contato com um GNU/Linux, além de dar a impressão de que a pessoa já conhece o sistema operacional de algum lugar.

                              #96296
                              Moderator
                              caprea

                                Please, everyone should be able to freely express their opinion here. Speculations about the reasons that caused another person to have a different mindset should be refrained from.Stop belittling others, this should be a diverse thread, with an interest for all users.

                                #96297
                                Member
                                techore

                                  So, not trusting my memory and checking my assumptions, I booted from antix-core and checked.

                                  I was wrong! Apparently, I installed packages resulting in a dependency(?) desktop-menu-antix that installed the jwm and icewm configuration files and such while I was working and remastering antix-core. My mistake.

                                  @marcelocripe, me starting a statement with ‘I am not taking your statement personally, but’ was the wrong thing to do. It is unclear and was interpreted wrong. I apologize. I really thought you made an excellent point and I did not take offense at anything in your post.

                                  Sorry for causing confusion with my inaccurate recollection.

                                  Back to the discussion.

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