Hello! Salut!

[Member tamix]

Hello! Here is my first post to the antiX forum.

My first name is Terry or Thierry – as you like it. The logname’s initials end with -ix as a kind of gentle reminder of the Unix flavour(s). Year 2022 is still too far to wish a Happy new year to the antiX community. A matter of time. I am convinced that being anticap is no handicap.

I have been exploring antiX for over 6 months. Currently I am very pleased to somehow reconnect to the GNU/Linux/Unix world, in particular with antiX under SysV. A big thanks to the main contributors as well as the other contributors.

So far, I belong to a certain subgroup of antiX users: those running antiX LiveUSB only on the fly. I cannot use connman atm, because I still have a wired connection, then I use pppoeconf for it. Most ISPs in my country have closed or are about to close their public/shared wi-fi hotspots in order to reduce theirs “costs” as much as possible. So I may encounter some limits if I’d want a more flexible usage but currently I feel rather comfortable that way. I am quite aware the “wired” era is condemned to die in a very short term, at least here.

I’ll probably send a few posts in the next days, some of which are more or less meant for the
antiX-21-b2_x64-full version which I consider quite well designed at first sight, as far as I can see. Well I can figure out the amount of efforts for making a version stable. If needed, you’ll tell me if I show up in the right thread or not with my respective posts.

What is the range of the antiX forum’s search engine? Can it reach any sort of thread or topic or has it some inherent limits? I am surely not the only one to ask such a question… Thank you for advice.

Take care. Have a nice day, a nice week.

(just testing the blockquote markup)

bye

[Member marcelocripe]

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Hello tamix,

Welcome to antiX Linux and the forum.

I don’t know how to write in English and I send my texts translated by the internet translator.

So I imagine you’ve already read the great tutorials created by @PPC:

Short essential how-to list for the complete Linux newbie and How-to install applications – 2020 version.

I know a lot of people who use antiX and MX Linux, but unfortunately they still don’t participate in the forums of both GNU Linux distributions. I hope you will continue to participate in the antiX forum.

When you start a thread or participate with a post, remember to check the option “Notify me of follow-up replies via email”, by checking this option, you will receive a message in your email box whenever there are replies from the topic in question.

marcelocripe
(Original text in Brazilian Portuguese language)

– – – – –

Olá tamix,

Seja bem-vindo ao antiX Linux e ao fórum.

Eu não sei escrever em idioma Inglês e envio os meus textos traduzidos pelo tradutor da internet.

Então eu imagino que você já tenha lido os excelentes tutoriais criados pelo @PPC:

Short essential how-to list for the complete Linux newbie e How-to install applications – 2020 version.

Eu conheço muitas pessoas que utilizam o antiX e o MX Linux, mas infelizmente ainda não participam dos fóruns de ambas as distribuições GNU Linux. Eu espero que você continue participando do fórum do antiX.

Quando você iniciar algum tópico ou participar com alguma postagem, lembre-se de marcar a opção “Notify me of follow-up replies via email”, marcando esta opção, você receberá uma mensagem na sua caixa de e-mail sempre que houver respostas do tópico em questão.

marcelocripe
(Texto original em idioma Português do Brasil)

[Member tamix]

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Hello tamix,

Welcome to antiX Linux and the forum.

Hello marcelocripe,

Thanks for greetings and your translated message.
See you.

[Moderator Brian Masinick]

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Hi Terry, a.k.a. Tamix!
Welcome to the antiX Forum and community.

As you may already know, “We’re a little different’: “lean and mean” regarding the basic resources and system capabilities required to effectively use antiX. We’re truly one of the few distributions to have continued support for ancient 32-bit systems, yet we also support many more recent systems.

I wish you well in all things.

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Brian Masinick

[Member tamix]

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@Brian Masinick

Brian Masinick wrote:

As you may already know, “We’re a little different’: “lean and mean” regarding the basic resources and system capabilities required to effectively use antiX. We’re truly one of the few distributions to have continued support for ancient 32-bit systems, yet we also support many more recent systems.

Thanks Brian for answer. Indeed, what you say is a short but real abstract for introducing antiX. It’s exactly why I am paying attention to what I consider a very well designed Linux distro. “Human-scaled”, I would say. I still have lot to learn about it.

As English is not my native language, I am not sure to fully understand the expression “lean and mean” since both terms are polysemic according my dictionary. I just have a small idea of it. Does it sound unambiguous to English-speaking people? Please help me understand better: in your mind, which term is opposite to “lean” and which one to “mean”? Or can everyone feel free to interpret them according one’s mood?

Next weeks, may be beginning 2022, I plan to test an antiX R-O live (let’s say a 21 release to come soon) on a 15-year old laptop only equipped with Windows XP SP2. The Toshiba Satellite Pro P100 has never known any internet connection. A true workshop though which works flawlessly – except its out of order clock battery – but I have also arranged things to make it run flawlessly.

This might remind us what amorozov interestingly said about a similar hardware. Mine has Intel Core 2 CPU T7200 @ 2.00 GHz, 3 GB RAM, 4 USB plugs but no usb boot – it can boot on hdd/cd/dvd/fdd/lan. I still have a 30 GB free partition to install antiX either in frugal mode or even other modes. And I’ll test also an internet connection, only on antiX of course. That’s it! Sure, I hope I’ll rely on you for such an ancient 32-bit system! I’ll give a report in the forum when I am done.

Greetings

[Member Wallon]

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Hello tamix,
Bonjour tamix,

Welcome to the antiX Forum.
Sois le bienvenu sur le forum.

“Lean and mean’ is an English “idiomatic expression”. All the translators of antiX had to do some interpretation because there isn’t corresponding expression in other languages.

According to French Wikipedia An “idiotisme ou expression idiomatique” is a construction or phrase particular to a language, which carries meaning as a whole and not by each of its individual words. It may be a grammatical construction or, more often, an imaginary or metaphorical expression. An “idiomatic expression” is usually untranslatable word by word and it may be difficult or impossible to express in another language.

Idiom in English doesn’t have the same meaning as idiom in French! We also have in French “l’idiotisme” = “expression idiomatique”.

It’s really complicated with all these translations. It’s better to play with antiX.

Best regards,
Wallon

[Moderator Brian Masinick]

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Another way to describe “lean and mean” is that antiX carefully uses all computer resources, the memory, CPU and disk as efficiently as possible so that antiX works well with a wide range of equipment, including old equipment as well as modern equipment.

antiX is one of the few currently supported Linux distributions with continuing support for 32 and 64 bit Intel and AMD processors.

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Brian Masinick

[Member tamix]

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Wallon

Hello Wallon,
Bonjour Wallon,

Thank you for explanations. May be you have raised important questions in my opinion. I could not have imagined such a thick layer of meaning under a single expression like “lean and mean”. Finally my poor considerations show at least that ‘there is nothing new under the sun’ (you know that, a French idiomatic expression). Well I have been taking some distance with most topics developed by all sorts of Wikipedia platforms, may be apart from en.wikipedia.org on digital things. I far prefer reading books, even when they specifically handle linguistic questions.

Let’s have a striking example in your kind post: I wonder why, in the paragraph going from “According to French Wikipedia” to “in another language”, I can almost read a literal translation of French entries I can find in my *own* dictionary which was published in …1972? That is a strange thing, is’nt it? So the question is: in that case, who directly copied whom? In my mind, certainly not the author of the good old dictionary named ‘Le Robert’, the linguist called Alain Rey, who sadly died last year at age 92. So what? Where is the plagiarism here? Who is trustworthy in such a case which was almost randomly taken among thousands and thousands?

One thing is sure, beyond any consideration about idioms and idiomatic expressions: according to my humble practice in languages, ‘untranslatable word by word’ does not mean ‘untranslatable at all’. In other words, the possibility that a word or an expression cannot be translated does *not* exist. Saying the contrary is a fake. Otherwise one would claim all over the world that poetry is untranslatable too, which is fake too. For instance, the so-called untranslatable portuguese word ‘saudade’ can be fully translated even if it would cost 3-4 words or 1-3 lines of explanations. Same thing with the English word ‘doomy’. Same thing with the Mandarin ‘Tao’, etc, etc. Have a look at the book “L’Idiot chinois”, 1980, written by the French philosopher Kyril Ryjik (1939-2018) on the Chinese philosophy. You’ll find a full demonstration in there – if ever it has been translated in foreign languages.

According to your user name, I presume you are a member of the French-speaking communities. You know, the term ‘idiotisme’ is *very*, *very rarely* used in French, apart from a few linguists near retirement. Whereas “expression idiomatique” has exactly the same meaning as an “idiomatic expression” in English. I may admit that “lean and mean” would be an idiomatic expression, or a wordplay or a hoax ‘à la James-Joyce’ or ‘à la Lewis-Caroll’ or a nonsense rhyme or whatever you like. I am just expecting possible translations of it as well as possible translations of each term. Nobody answered to me at the moment but it will happen anytime. I’ll find them if they are worthwile. If it’s a fake or a game, i’ll give up. Perhaps the secret is that there is no secret at all.

Greetings

[Member tamix]

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@Brian Masinick

Another way to describe “lean and mean” is that antiX carefully uses all computer resources, the memory, CPU and disk as efficiently as possible so that antiX works well with a wide range of equipment, including old equipment as well as modern equipment.

Great. You’ve just given us a four-lined explanation which reflects from your point of view a reality about antiX. It’s new to me and very interesting.

Regards

[Forum Admin anticapitalista]

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Just to add that ‘lean and mean’ is ambiguous, like, as has been mentioned, many idiomatic expressions.
I really like this ambiguity, but for translators I can understand the frustration in trying to be precise with the phrase.

Language is not static, it changes. New words get added (often from other languages, dialects), some fall out of fashion, others change their meaning.

Remember language is also about expressing thoughts, feelings and complex and abstract terms, which others need to interpret (again possibly leading to confusion and misunderstanding as the words used may be absent in another language, but the concept may exist but expressed differently).

Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

[Member marcelocripe]

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Dear Tamix,

I want to record my thanks for raising this very important question about the phrase “Lean and Mean!”. As you already know, I can’t read, write or speak the English language. Therefore, I depend solely and exclusively on my ability to interpret machine translations to try to understand and be understood here in this forum or any other forum that is not in my Brazilian Portuguese language.
In any topic that I come to participate in or initiate, it is always required of me an extremely great care in the construction of my text in Brazilian Portuguese language. Any oversight on my part, whether due to typographical errors, spelling errors or simply a construction of sentences that may generate ambiguity, automatic translations will certainly express sentences that totally escape the original meaning.

You mentioned very well, some examples of words or phrases that cannot be translated without an explanation of what they really mean, as well as were commented by our colleagues who spoke on this topic, there are many words that do not have translations, but that they can and should be explained with a few words or if necessary a few paragraphs, what really matters is that communication takes place in a satisfactory manner between people.

In an interview with the author, actor and comedian, mr. Roberto Gómez Bolaños (El Chavo del Ocho) for a television station in Brazil, I learned that the word ‘saudade’ has no translation into the Spanish language.

The following are the meanings of a famous Brazilian dictionary, the Michaelis:

saudade

sau·da·de (separation of syllables)

1 Nostalgic and melancholic feeling associated with the memory of an absent, distant or extinct person or thing, or the absence of things, pleasures and emotions experienced and already passed, considered positive and desirable goods; sodade, soidade.
2 Songs Cantiga sung by sailors on the high seas.
3 Whistler Zool V, meaning 2.
4 Bot Name common to several plants from different families, mainly from the compound and dipsacaceae family; sigh, sighs.
5 Bot Herb (Scabiosa atropurpurea) of the dipsacaceae family, native to Europe, cultivated as ornamental for its beautiful white, pink or purple flowers; widow’s flower, widow.
miss you

plural feminine noun

Memories or affectionate greetings from those who feel the absence of others.

Practical examples used of the word ‘saudade’ (in the singular) or ‘saudades’ (in the plural) in Brazilian Portuguese:

“I really miss my grandfather who is no longer alive”

“I miss you, Grandpa, but I still love you with all my love!”

In both sentences the word ‘saudade’ expresses the feeling that occurs for the loss of a loved one.

If you analyze the word ‘antiX’, it brings with it many possible interpretations.

Now, about the phrase “Lean and Mean!”, the creator of antiX had better explain the meaning used in the phrase.

marcelocripe
(Original text in Brazilian Portuguese language)

– – – – –

Caro tamix,

Eu quero registrar os meus agradecimentos por você levantar esta questão tão importante sobre a frase “Lean and Mean!”. Como você já sabe, eu não sei ler, escrever ou falar o idioma Inglês. Por isso, eu dependo única e exclusivamente da minha capacidade de interpretação das traduções automáticas para tentar compreender e ser compreendido aqui neste fórum ou em qualquer outro que não esteja em meu idioma Português do Brasil.
Em qualquer tópico que eu venha participar ou iniciar, é sempre exigido de mim um cuidado extremamente grande na construção do meu texto em idioma Português do Brasil. Qualquer descuido meu, seja por erro de digitação, erro ortográfico ou simplesmente por uma construção das frases que possam gerar ambiguidade as traduções automáticas certamente expressarão frases que fogem totalmente do sentido original.

Você citou muito bem, alguns exemplos de palavras ou frases que não podem ser traduzidas sem que exista uma explicação sobre o que realmente significa, bem como foram comentados por nossos colegas que se manifestaram neste tópico, existem muitas palavras que não existem traduções, mas que podem e devem ser explicadas com algumas palavras ou se necessário alguns parágrafos, o que realmente importa é que a comunicação ocorra de maneira satisfatória entre as pessoas.

Em uma entrevista do autor, ator e comediante, o sr. Roberto Gómez Bolaños (El Chavo del Ocho) para uma emissora de televisão do Brasil, eu aprendi que a palavra ‘saudade’ não possui tradução para o idioma Espanhol.

A seguir, os significados de um famoso dicionário Brasileiro, o Michaelis:

saudade

sau·da·de (separação das sílabas)

1 Sentimento nostálgico e melancólico associado à recordação de pessoa ou coisa ausente, distante ou extinta, ou à ausência de coisas, prazeres e emoções experimentadas e já passadas, consideradas bens positivos e desejáveis; sodade, soidade.
2 Mús Cantiga entoada por marinheiros em alto-mar.
3 Zool V assobiador, acepção 2.
4 Bot Denominação comum a várias plantas de diversas famílias, principalmente da família das compostas e das dipsacáceas; suspiro, suspiros.
5 Bot Erva (Scabiosa atropurpurea) da família das dipsacáceas, nativa da Europa, cultivada como ornamental por suas belas flores brancas, rosas ou roxas; flor-de-viúva, viúva.
saudades

substantivo feminino plural

Lembranças ou cumprimentos afetuosos de quem sente a ausência de outrem.

Exemplos práticos utilizados da palavra ‘saudade’ (no singular) ou ‘saudades’ (no plural) em idioma Português do Brasil:

“Eu sinto muitas saudades do meu avô que não está mais vivo”

“Eu sinto saudades, vô, mas permaneço te amando com todo o meu amor!”

Em ambas as frases a palavra ‘saudade’ expressa o sentimento que ocorre pela a perda do ente querido.

Se você analisar a palavra ‘antiX’, ela trás consigo muitas possibilidades de interpretações.

Agora, sobre a frase “Lean and Mean!”, é melhor o criador do antiX explicar o sentido empregado na frase.

marcelocripe
(Texto original em idioma Português do Brasil)

[Moderator Brian Masinick]

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Please note that anticapitalista has deliberately chosen to describe his creation in an ambiguous manner.

We have explained at various times and various ways that antiX is designed to function very efficiently (“mean”) and consume resources conservatively (¨lean¨).

Anything else is open to your imagination and creativity. The antiX distro is also well suited for customization.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by Brian Masinick.

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Brian Masinick

[Member tamix]

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@Brian Masinick

Please note that anticapitalista has deliberately chosen to describe his creation in an ambiguous manner.

We have explained at various times and various ways that antiX is designed to function very efficiently (“mean”) and consume resources conservatively (¨lean¨).

Thank you, Brian, for giving us contextual information. I appreciate. Finally, once more you hit the bull’s-eye – like anticapitalista. I think it’s your definitive word… of the day! I presume this is exactly the reason why the current debian release called “bullseye” is the very first flavor of what the next antiX release will look like! (Caution. Now there are so many bulls around us).

I was still thinking of your post of yesterday around “lean and mean”. Do you think that a logical expression like “necessary and sufficient” might be applied or equivalent to it? For making tea, tea and water are necessary and sufficient. Not milk. So we can discard milk as it is not necessary to the 32-/64-bit systems. Personally I don’t dislike the idea. Ok without milk: it’s antiX so to speak. But we still appreciate cream…

@anticapitalista

Language is not static, it changes.
…
possibly leading to confusion and misunderstanding

Hello anticapitalist! Thank you for adding your contribution. I think you’ve hit the bull’s-eye. As you are the keymaster of this forum site, you probably are well placed historically to observe how languages and multiple ways of speaking are a constant and moving feature of human beings. On my side my experience in languages came from many journeys all over the world as well as linguistics and I also liked learning foreign languages at a time – particularly before traveling.

You’ve added two major features to the fundamental question of language/expression/translation:

– the historical dimension because it’s a never-ending process. Every language keeps changing. An enlightening example might be all possible current “cousins” of the English language: Globish, Hinglish. Spanglish, and so on – I am saying the list without any value judgment, because it’s indeed a very important process linguistically speaking.

A book recently written by an archeologist tries to demonstrate that the hypothesis of the unique origin of a so-called Euro-Asian language, “Indo-European”, is nothing but a myth. According to the thesis, there is scientifically no evidence that an “Indo-European” entity has ever existed historically. A state of research that shows up after 150 years of European wars…. The ‘concept’ resulted only from political, hard controversies that took place in Europe over the 19th century until the defeat of the Nazi regime in 1945. Yet in 2021, some right-wing movements as well as some parts of the upper-class are still stuck on that ‘concept’. Sigh.

Another significant example: Years ago, I watched a documentary on the Universities existing in UK. At a moment, two scholars working in Oxford/Cambridge sadly admitted – in a sort of confession, I would say ironically – that the English language is finally more or less a “bastard” language (I am using their own terminology, not mine). Apparently, their sadness was mainly due to the fact that 50 to 60% of the current English vocabulary came from French after a 3-century occupation of England by William the Conqueror, Duke of Normandy, and his successors. A strange reaction. It made me just smile because in my mind their sadness was worthless, they simply could not understand or imagine – even expressing themselves as “scholars” – what a given historical process can be in history, in language science etc.

– the ‘agonistical’ dimension (the word’s etymology is Greek as you certainly know) because getting to a consensus in situations like a discussion in daily life, a debate, a conference or a forum thread is not only often impossible but also highly questionable. Has the scientific world got to a consensus concerning the current pandemics after 18 months? In no way. Is a consensus something to wish? That is the question. Let’s talk about it! Sure, “agon” does not mean “war” in this context.

but the concept may exist but expressed differently

Some respected (Western) sholars have claimed that China has no Mandarin word – and Vietnam no Vietnamese word – to express what we usually call “freedom” in the Western countries – as a matter of fact the subject keeps being discussed. Beyond the theoretical dimension, it does not imply that Chinese or Vietnamese people have “no idea” or “no experience” of what freedom is. Quite the contrary. If a Chinese is put in jail, they *immediately* have a concrete experience, a high idea of what freedom is or means and how they can express it in their own language! Even without jail, they have a high idea of what freedom is! Even animals have such experiences. Look at a tiger put in an iron cage, turning and turning round alone, what is it expressing to us, blind human beings!

As you can see above, Brian Masinick gave an interesting interpretation of “lean and mean” regarding the antiX context. Why don’t you give yours, by the way? A matter of distance or discretion may be? I am waiting for… If you tell me the expression is idiomatic, ok I’ll quite agree – since I suppose you speak English, your native language. But if you tell me the expression is “untranslatable”, I think you are in the wrong way. Just consider below the case of “saudade” with marcelocripe.

@marcelocripe

Muito obrigado, marcelocripe. Many thanks! Your quotation of the definitions of “saudade” from the Michaelis is helpful, particularly the 1st one which is also the main one. Your last examples of sentences bring also many shades of subtle nuances. Years ago, some close Brazilian friends told me that “saudade” may sometimes be close to “melancholy” and “nostalgy” but also quite different in most Brazilian minds. As I tried to guess what they meant, they had fun answering my successive suggestions by saying ‘yes!’, ‘yes…’, ‘no!’, ‘no…’, ‘may be’, ‘yes, a little bit’, ‘not far but…’, ‘oh, not at all!’, and so on. It’s actually a very nice recall. Do you agree with them, marcelocripe?

Now, about the phrase “Lean and Mean!”, the had better explain the meaning used in the phrase.

Just waiting for the creator of antiX’ answer. If you could see me, I keep praying.

[Member tamix]

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@marcelocripe

Memories or affectionate greetings from those who feel the absence of others.

Lembranças ou cumprimentos afetuosos de quem sente a ausência de outrem.

As I read again your message, I pay more attention to the sentence above. In my mind this one expresses at best what “saudade” would mean to Brazilian people – at least it would be my favorite to explain it.

I also clearly remember what my Brazilian friends wanted to emphasize about “saudade” as a feeling: according to them, it has much more to do with the current moment than with the past, more to do with “here and now” than with “yesterday”. Often “saudade” comes preferably with a smile.

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