I tried Manjaro I3

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This topic contains 38 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by BobC Sep 7-8:46 am.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 39 total)
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  • #26703
    Member
    manyroads
    manyroads

    @BobC… you are wonderfully human. Oh and my touchscreen is turned off. 😉 My grandsons make that essential.

    Pax vobiscum,
    Mark Rabideau - http://many-roads.com
    bspwm MX-18.3 kernel: 5.2.15-antix.1-amd64-smp
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
    MX- antiX- BL- ArchLabs

    #26708
    Member
    dgh
    dgh

    The biggest drawback of tiling WM — one needs keyboard to control them — the keyboard is what one tries to avoid using, not a mouse.

    Makes this discussion pretty pointless.

    Any discussion with you is pointless.

    Mice is THE reason why we still use PC in the first place.

    Just try using something “multi-touch” or “gestures” instead and you’ll understand.

    Goes both ways. Try using a computer without a keyboard. You generally lose 50% functionality, no matter what kind of program you are using. Virtual/On-Screen Keyboard = Keyboard, so don’t even try splitting hairs on this. Also, stop saying “we” in an attempt to control all sides of the discussion. You’re talking about YOU, (TROLL,) so you should say I, not WE.. unless perhaps you are referring to WE as in your multiple personalities.

    Tilling WM have exactly one use case scenario where they make sense — server monitoring/programming.

    More hot air from the troll living under the antiX bridge. Luke Smith wrote his entire Master’s Thesis and web site using a tiling WM (mostly i3-gaps, if I’m not mistaken) He does livestreams using i3-gaps. So that is a clear example of using a tiling WM as a daily driver. Window management is mostly work-ambiguous, because all modern tiling WM allow some form of mouse use.

    You have a consistent TROLL-like habit of speaking in cartoonish extremes about trivial things, that boil down to personal preference. You also take unnecessary jabs at people. You should start your own distribution (with systemd of course haha) with your own message board, so you can stop picking meaningless fights with these nice people. I’m not a regular here but I have watched this message board for a long time before registering to comment; this place seemed pretty chill before you slithered in. I see you for the sidewinder you are and I’m not afraid to say that I hope you are banned from posting here.

    Do not expect me to respond to any of your circular shitposts. I will not read it.

    #26709
    Member
    caprea
    caprea

    btw You might correct the typo in your signature block.

    Why did you betray that?It was entertaining, wasn’t it?

    #26710
    Member
    eugen-b
    eugen-b

    BobC’s experience totally makes sense. If you are not used to a program you will have difficulties until you get used to it.
    * One needs to get used to a few keybindings for a few typical actions: program launcher (usually dmenu), terminal, close window, switch to workspace number N.
    * I think there is no doubt that keyboard shortcuts, when you know them, are more efficient than mouse clicks or taps on a touchscreen virtual keyboard which you cannot use without looking on it.
    * One needs to get used to the way how the third window gets opened on a given workspace. Second window is usually no problem, you have enough space to read and use the applications of two windows which are side by side vertically or horizontally. But if the third window opens in the same orientation (vertical or horizintal) you have three stripes which are not balanced enough in length an width to display a typical application. Most tiling WMs have a keybinding to switch the orientation to open a new wind and you would hit that keys before you open a third window. Bspwm as an exception switches the orientation for the third window automatically. (But it does so for the fourth as well and that makes the windows become too small. A ideal solution would be a WM which opens a new window on the space which halves the largest window.)
    * “Nothing is a bigger waste of time than moving windows around until they are the right size-ish (…)” – https://github.com/conformal/spectrwm/blob/master/README.md
    * So the point of using a tiling WM or any other GUI which offers many automation or behaviour pattern which can be launched with shortcuts is that you have the time and memory to learn an to memorize those shortcuts.

    I’m quite clumsy with IceWM, because I don’t know the keybindings like open applications menu, tile the windows manually, switch to the next workspace. I also don’t like thick window frames and don’t which theme would minimize them. I knows my ins and out in JWM and can use it quite happily.

    As for Manjaro, I like that it is easily reinstalled. If my system crashes I won’t reinstall but rather try to repair it, or clone back a backup, but still it gives confidence. The main reason it that I learned to use the AUR to build special packages from source, I know how to manipulate the PKGBUILD if I get errors or need a newer version of the package. On antiX I never built from source apart from some exceptions.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by eugen-b.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by eugen-b.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by eugen-b.
    #26714
    Member
    Avatar
    BobC

    Yes, I3 was totally foreign to me. It is a “lost cause” as far as I’m concerned. It’s not that its bad, just foreign to me, and I found myself flailing away at the keys wondering what to try, and eventually just trying to figure out how to get out of it, in a final act of desperation, LOL.

    It really doesn’t matter if something is driven with the mouse, keyboard, touchpad, or any combination of them. If you know what to do to accomplish a particular task, you will be a lot better off, and the more tasks you know how to do that the system will perform automatically multiple steps of, the more efficient you will be with it, all other factors being similar.

    To be honest, I am always hoping to launch a program and find out it does what I want already just from me intuitively guessing what keys to hit or how/what to click, or from obvious clues. If I need to read the manual to do simpler, common tasks, I need to either figure out how to reconfigure it, or re-evaluate why I chose it, and whether it is worth the pain that I know will follow as I make mistakes, etc. There have been a few programs in my life that were worth fighting that large of a learning curve, but most aren’t because hopefully there are better alternatives available.

    As for Manjaro itself, they really have some hardware support issues that should have been figured out and cured long ago. I can understand after having 50% of my machines refuse to boot, why their Distrowatch ratings are falling. I can’t always “just try a different machine”, especially with a relatively slow system, which refuses to boot on my fastest machines.

    One thing I learned from this discussion, and thanks to eugen for making it clear, is that we really should have a way to easily/quickly “Display KeyMap” that instantly shows the current keyboard and mouse mapping (lol, how do you do that for the touchpad???), and the first time in, it should pop up by itself, and do that every time you login, until you unclick the box saying to keep showing it after every login. I might have survived adapting to I3 if that had been there for me. Maybe eugen would have survived adapting to IceWM if it had been there for him.

    #26715
    Member
    Avatar
    BobC

    Yes, but we should be nice when it comes to minor grammatical goofs. I see so many people that went to 12 to 16 years of school in English, that can’t communicate, so we should allow more leeway when we see that their native language is different. If I had to type here in Spanish or German nobody would understand anything I said.

    He does pretty darned well at that, even if I do disagree a good bit, and he can do graphics in minutes, BLINDFOLDED I bet, that would take me hours, *IF* I could get it eventually.

    Live and let live…

    #26727
    Member
    eugen-b
    eugen-b

    As for Manjaro itself, they really have some hardware support issues that should have been figured out and cured long ago. I can understand after having 50% of my machines refuse to boot, why their Distrowatch ratings are falling. I can’t always “just try a different machine”, especially with a relatively slow system, which refuses to boot on my fastest machines.

    That can’t be done if you try to be cutting edge and newest versions of everything. For example, Catalyst non-free graphics needed old version of Xorg. Manjaro tried to keep them as long as possible, but some day they had to discontinue support. Same with older Nvidia cards which non-free drivers stopped working with new Xorg 1.20. Manjaro decided not to ship xorg-server-1.19 as a separate package. And there are also some obscure in-kernel drivers for legacy hardware which can be eneabled at compile time, but they are labled as “dangerous”. They are disabled in Manjaro kernels. Maybe they are enabled in antiX kernels, I didn’t take the time to investigate antiX kernel config closely. To sum up, Manjaro takes older hardware into consideration, but it’s not suited as a “retiremnt home” for every sort of old hardware.

    One thing I learned from this discussion, and thanks to eugen for making it clear, is that we really should have a way to easily/quickly “Display KeyMap” that instantly shows the current keyboard and mouse mapping (lol, how do you do that for the touchpad???), and the first time in, it should pop up by itself, and do that every time you login, until you unclick the box saying to keep showing it after every login. I might have survived adapting to I3 if that had been there for me. Maybe eugen would have survived adapting to IceWM if it had been there for him.

    If I really wanted I could have found the answer in http://download.tuxfamily.org/antix/docs-antiX-17/FAQ/icewm.html :

    What about the keyboard shortcuts?
    CC -→ Desktop -→ Edit IceWM Settings -→ keys. The syntax is simple. Alt+Ctrl is equivalent to the “Super” key.

    But I wasn’t too eager and IMHO it is not the point to force feed a user with information with MS Office sort of pop ups with “useful” tips. 😉

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by eugen-b.
    #26733
    Member
    manyroads
    manyroads

    I believe @eugene-b makes some important points worth re-enforcing:

    — antiX & MX are geared to providing a stable desktop environment.
    — manjaro (and the broader arch community, I believe) are geared more towards desktop innovation and invention.
    — antiX, especially, is focused/ dedicated to running on old, less resource rich, devices.
    — manjaro (and arch more generally) focus (their limited resources) on hardware platforms built in the last decade.

    Although I have no data to support the following assertion, I believe it can be said that more “Desktop” invention and innovation takes place within the arch ecosphere than does in Debian. Debian is more focused on being a ‘universal’ OS.

    Not that anyone was really worried about this, but, personally I like both worlds. 😉

    Pax vobiscum,
    Mark Rabideau - http://many-roads.com
    bspwm MX-18.3 kernel: 5.2.15-antix.1-amd64-smp
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
    MX- antiX- BL- ArchLabs

    #26756
    Member
    Avatar
    BobC

    The machines that can’t run Manjaro are the Pentium III machines due to video and total slowness if video is replaced.

    The other ones that fail are my I7’s, which all fail, because they can’t boot the flashdrive at all. The solution I found was to copy the iso’s to the HD and then edit in a loopback boot into another OS’s grub boot.

    Not many normal folks will get that far successfully, and will just try another distro. That problem is now 9 months old at least that I saw.

    #26760
    Member
    manyroads
    manyroads

    I certainly have no idea. All my recent manjaro installs have been in VBox, which worked just fine for me. I assume you reported your problems on the manjaro site, assuming you were concerned enough to actually want help. 😉

    Pax vobiscum,
    Mark Rabideau - http://many-roads.com
    bspwm MX-18.3 kernel: 5.2.15-antix.1-amd64-smp
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
    MX- antiX- BL- ArchLabs

    #26763
    Member
    Avatar
    BobC

    I’m going to be trying VBox soon. I don’t need to bother them as they already know about the problem.

    I just wanted to try the new IceWM and thought it would be easy to just install it on the I3 spin after seeing what it was like…

    #26771
    Member
    manyroads
    manyroads

    @BobC so here’s something I think holds pretty true regarding finding where useful Desktop implementations may be found, if you are seeking them for experimentation and learning.

    When I started my wm/ de examinations I thought jwm or bspwm or iceWM or xfce should all be pretty much the same no matter the distro. I discovered that was not the case. Xfce is to my mind nice on only a few distros; for me, they are manjaro, MX & Mint. bspwm is really much better on archlabs than anywhere else. You get the point.

    Based on my further searches here’s what seemed common in identifying where the good demonstration distros were. Key seemed to be: who was active on reddit or other distro/ desktop/ wm discussion groups. Dobbie of archlabs is active on bspwm and openbox, his distro shows it. MX and manjaro are committed to a first class xfce setup (you see it in their forums). Based on dotfiles for i3wm, bspwm and maybe openbox I’d guess arcolinux would be an excellent place to go (Erik Dubois publishes tons of example for each setup). Bunsenlabs/ archlabs are “go to” sites for openbox (all you need do is visit their sites to see the enthusiasm and effort place on the OB wm).

    Anyway, it’s not an exact science, by any means. Certainly my above examples are not exhaustive. It’s not even always the same pointers & indicators. However, activity, enthusiasm and focus seem to provide a good indication of the quality work and effort placed on the various desktops. And, their implementations are almost always worth examining.

    Your mileage may vary… 😉

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by manyroads.

    Pax vobiscum,
    Mark Rabideau - http://many-roads.com
    bspwm MX-18.3 kernel: 5.2.15-antix.1-amd64-smp
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
    MX- antiX- BL- ArchLabs

    #26773
    Member
    Avatar
    BobC

    I loaded Manjaro I3 to be able to install the newest IceWM from the Arch repos.

    My effort is to make antiX the goto distro for IceWM. That’s why I want the newest code with the bug fixes etc.

    but it’s really not mine to decide, so if I can, I help it along, and reap the benefits of it everytime I turn on my PC’s.

    Every lap a little better line, a little faster, a little better time…

    #26778
    Member
    eugen-b
    eugen-b

    I loaded Manjaro I3 to be able to install the newest IceWM from the Arch repos.

    Throw Manjaro down the well! You should learn to build a package from source on antiX.
    There are instructions for that on Github https://github.com/bbidulock/icewm#quick-start , but it will build the latest commit, not the latest release. For that download the latest release from [EDIT: corrected the address) https://github.com/ice-wm/icewm/releases , extract the archive and cd to the extracted folder. Then compile like said in the Quick Start:

    $> ./autogen.sh
    $> ./configure
    $> make
    $> make DESTDIR="$pkgdir" install

    More detailed instructions: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/svn/x/icewm.html

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by eugen-b.
    #26780
    Member
    manyroads
    manyroads

    @BobC I agree you will be much happier and the results will be far superior, following eugene-b’s recommendation. I’d add that once you get iceWM installed, you ought to tweak and adjust things to perform optimally (you make the call on what that is). Once you get things running smoothly roll-out a respin. Et voila, you are a developer. Such are my plans with bspwm on the final antiX19 release.

    Pax vobiscum,
    Mark Rabideau - http://many-roads.com
    bspwm MX-18.3 kernel: 5.2.15-antix.1-amd64-smp
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
    MX- antiX- BL- ArchLabs

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