Inconvenient Truths (plural) … pluralism, plurality

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This topic contains 11 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by eugen-b Jun 21-2:23 am.

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  • #23529
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    skidoo

    This post is a draft, a placeholder
    (created this new topic so that I can link to it from the betatesting topic)

    https://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/antix-19-b1-full-64-and-32-bit-available/
    noClue posted:

    Advocates are advocating, Preachers are preaching and Teachers are teaching.
    I do the last. 😉

    Remember those old school classrooms, ‘one for all age’?
    That’s the forum.

    That never worked and will never work.

    To a university student you say it once and he got it.
    To a kindergarten children you repeat, repeat and keep repeating and they still didn’t get it.
    Experience shows that only repeating helps or the most people will never learn.

    .
    What I type in this topic will not be motivated by a hope of achieving a consensus.
    On points where we agree, we should expect that others may still disagree.
    On points where we disagree, facts can be cited and opinions expressed… without attempting coercion.
    .

    .

    #23534
    Member
    eugen-b
    eugen-b

    It must be frustrating to be smart.
    (But for the smart people to understand others there a discipline called psychology and for teachers there is didactics.)

    there’s still no good reason against having a ‘simpler’ 32-bit version and a ‘more sophisticated’ 64-bit version.

    More work is a reason against. Another reason is that antiX must keep the focus on being the best distro for old hardware. (Maybe Tiny Core with its Xorg 1.12 will still be better, but antiX will be second best.) I don’t think that antiX should try too hard to outperform other distros on newer machines, because it will cost too much effort.
    At some point there might become necessary to ship significantly different versions of the distro for 32bit and 64bit, because some programs might stop to work or to compile on 32bit.

    I actually disagree with people who posted that if antiX is better than others for old HW it is also better than others for new HW. There are probably compile time optimizations, kernel configs which might make the OS work better on older HW, but might slow down newer HW or not allow it to use its full potential.

    You wrote about disposing old HW. I would generally agree that a bit of money is woth spending on better HW. But there are some cases for older machines:
    – a user might feel proud to use an old machine, like an oldtimer car
    – some old machines are well-built, were very expensive when they were new and still do their job well – some Thinkpads are am example, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Vaio_P_series are still very expensive from second hand

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by eugen-b.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by eugen-b.
    #23537
    Member
    ile
    ile

    Huh? ? I did not get that. Can you say it again , please.

    #23539
    Member
    eugen-b
    eugen-b

    Repeat what?

    #23544
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    olsztyn

    some old machines are well-built, were very expensive when they were new and still do their job well – some Thinkpads are am example,

    Well put. I have a number of T410’s high resolution, two T520 full HD IPS true color, X220 i7, etc.
    These are perhaps 8 years old machines but you can hardly find laptops made today in reasonable price that would be better. Yes, they may be thinner, but not any faster. Batteries are now not replaceable, which means practically disposable after a few years. Keyboards are now inferior -they need to be thinner after all. I would not trade these Thinkpads for the new models…
    But it is waste of time to argue with people who think only in terms what is new and what is old, not having any understanding beyond that… Profits for manufacturers depend on people’s ignorance after all…

    #23551
    Member
    AK-47
    AK-47

    The most important reason to keep the old hardware running is environmental. E-waste is quite a serious problem, caused by a modern-day attention-deficit society that needs to upgrade computers every so often to “keep in fashion” or whatever.
    Having a bit of extra CO2 in the environment is much less damaging than the waste, and is in fact a non-issue.

    About 10 years ago I entered a store that had a marketing flyer which said something like: “Did you know that 3 years is 97 computer years?” I guess my systems are all medieval. My laptop is 330 years old, and my desktop is 750 years old. I have a 32-bit Thinkpad which is 460 years old.

    In a time where software bloat is celebrated and revered, antiX does give a breath of fresh air that you can still use older hardware to engage with the modern world of technology.

    32-bit systems are still fairly usable for other purposes, including managing collages of drunken selfies and pictures of half-eaten sandwiches and pies to stick on Instagram.

    Let’s put it this way, Intel stopped selling the i386 and i486 CPUs in 2007, and Microsoft stopped selling Windows for Workgroups 3.11 in 2008.

    there’s still no good reason against having a ‘simpler’ 32-bit version and a ‘more sophisticated’ 64-bit version.

    Other than consistency and reduced effort in development and testing.
    Windows doesn’t do it. None of the BSDs do it. MX Linux doesn’t do it. Why should antiX do it?

    #23553
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    Avatar
    seaken64

    “Did you know that 3 years is 97 computer years?” I guess my systems are all medieval. My laptop is 330 years old, and my desktop is 750 years old. I have a 32-bit Thinkpad which is 460 years old.

    My XT-286 is 1131 years old!

    #23555
    Member
    AK-47
    AK-47

    The most important reason to keep the old hardware running is environmental. E-waste is quite a serious problem, caused by a modern-day attention-deficit society that needs to upgrade computers every so often to “keep in fashion” or whatever.
    Having a bit of extra CO2 in the environment is much less damaging than the waste, and is in fact a non-issue.

    About 10 years ago I entered a store that had a marketing flyer which said something like: “Did you know that 3 years is 97 computer years?” I guess my systems are all medieval. My laptop is 330 years old, and my desktop is 750 years old. I have a 32-bit Thinkpad which is 460 years old.

    In a time where software bloat is celebrated and revered, antiX does give a breath of fresh air that you can still use older hardware to engage with the modern world of technology.

    32-bit systems are still fairly usable for other purposes, including managing collages of drunken selfies and pictures of half-eaten sandwiches and pies to stick on Instagram.

    Let’s put it this way, Intel stopped selling the i386 and i486 CPUs in 2007, and Microsoft stopped selling Windows for Workgroups 3.11 in 2008.

    there’s still no good reason against having a ‘simpler’ 32-bit version and a ‘more sophisticated’ 64-bit version.

    Other than consistency and reduced effort in development and testing.
    Windows doesn’t do it. None of the BSDs do it. MX Linux doesn’t do it. Why should antiX do it?

    #23557
    Member
    AK-47
    AK-47

    The most important reason to keep the old hardware running is environmental. E-waste is quite a serious problem, caused by a modern-day attention-deficit society that needs to upgrade computers every so often to “keep in fashion” or whatever.
    Having a bit of extra CO2 in the environment is much less damaging than the waste, and is in fact a non-issue.

    About 10 years ago I entered a store that had a marketing flyer which said something like: “Did you know that 3 years is 97 computer years?” I guess my systems are all medieval. My laptop is 330 years old, and my desktop is 750 years old. I have a 32-bit Thinkpad which is 460 years old.

    In a time where software bloat is celebrated and revered, antiX does give a breath of fresh air that you can still use older hardware to engage with the modern world of technology.

    32-bit systems are still fairly usable for other purposes, including managing collages of drunken selfies and pictures of half-eaten sandwiches and pies to stick on Instagram.

    Let’s put it this way, Intel stopped selling the i386 and i486 CPUs in 2007, and Microsoft stopped selling Windows for Workgroups 3.11 in 2008.

    there’s still no good reason against having a ‘simpler’ 32-bit version and a ‘more sophisticated’ 64-bit version.

    Other than consistency and reduced effort in development and testing.
    Windows doesn’t do it. None of the BSDs do it. Other Linux distros don’t do it. Why should antiX do it?

    #23558
    Member
    AK-47
    AK-47

    The most important reason to keep the old hardware running is environmental. E-waste is quite a serious problem, caused by a modern-day attention-deficit society that needs to upgrade computers every so often to “keep in fashion” or whatever.
    Having a bit of extra CO2 in the environment is much less damaging than the waste, and is in fact a non-issue.

    About 10 years ago I entered a store that had a marketing flyer which said something like: “Did you know that 3 years is 97 computer years?” I guess my systems are all medieval. My laptop is 330 years old, and my desktop is 750 years old. I have a 32-bit Thinkpad which is 460 years old.

    In a time where software bloat is celebrated and revered, antiX does give a breath of fresh air that you can still use older hardware to engage with the modern world of technology.

    32-bit systems are still fairly usable for other purposes, including managing collages of drunken selfies and pictures of half-eaten sandwiches and pies to stick on Instagram.

    Let’s put it this way, Intel stopped selling the i386 and i486 CPUs in 2007, and Microsoft stopped selling Windows for Workgroups 3.11 in 2008.

    there’s still no good reason against having a ‘simpler’ 32-bit version and a ‘more sophisticated’ 64-bit version.

    Other than consistency and reduced effort in development and testing.
    Windows doesn’t do it, none of the BSDs do it, and neither do the other Linux distros. Why should antiX do it?

    #23563
    Member
    Avatar
    BobC

    I would guess at some point that some change somewhere will break 32 bit stuff, and it will take too much effort to get around, for too few people actively wanting it, willing/able to code it, willing to test it, etc.

    It isn’t necessary to decide when that time will come in advance. There is no new code for my 486 lunchbox portable that I know of, and the power supply started smoking the last time I powered it up.

    At some point, its just easier and more natural for time to stand still. I pulled the HD, hooked it to the Dual PIII 750, and took all the code I wanted to keep off it.

    #23567
    Member
    eugen-b
    eugen-b

    Windows doesn’t do it, none of the BSDs do it, and neither do the other Linux distros. Why should antiX do it?

    LXLE and 4MLinux do. It is not a completely bad idea, because you may be able do with 64bit more things than with 32bit, but the maintainer must be willing to put additional effort into a second project.

    I would guess at some point that some change somewhere will break 32 bit stuff, and it will take too much effort to get around, for too few people actively wanting it, willing/able to code it, willing to test it, etc.

    There are already some problems coming up in ArchLinux32. Some application require SSE2 to function which is not part of i686, so they started to build packages for the architecture pentium4. But this gives some minor issues like jdk8 not working with glibc.pentium4 version.

    As for environmental aspects, they are probably a mixed bag. You have to compare operational environmental costs with environmental overhead costs for the disposal of old plus the production of new machines.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by eugen-b.
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