- This topic has 32 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated Mar 17-9:05 pm by anticapitalista.
-
Posts
-
punranger
Hi,
I just saw there was an update on the download page, specifying the two different init systems. Thanks to however updated the page, in general I think the page improved. But as a non-technical user of antiX, I never considered the init system before. So I’m curious as to where I can find a description of the two versions as they apply to a user of antiX. I looked in the wiki, and couldn’t find anything there. I also did a forum search, and didn’t really find what I was looking for.
My point is that for a confused first time user, it would be a good idea to say something on the download page about what the choice means in practice. The only thing it says is that sysv is the default, if I recall correctly. Thanks again for the great work.
antiX linux: The best way to revive an old computer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCTaUAP6sSg
Brian Masinick
Brian Masinick
Why use runit?
Runit’s simple collection of tools can be used to build flexible dependency structures and distributed systems, or blazing fast parallel runlevel changes (including the initial boot). Runit can be used as a simple process supervisor, see the #User Services for an example.Sep 23, 2022Runit – ArchWiki – Arch Linux https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/runit
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Comparison_of_init_systems--
Brian Masinickpunranger
I did find that link, I think it was the top search result. But my point was I think the download page or the wiki should say something about this, and specifically how it applies to users of the lovely distro we are all here for.
antiX linux: The best way to revive an old computer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCTaUAP6sSg
Brian Masinick
I *think* I recognize one or two “skidoo” posts in that thread – could it be? Miss that guy; he contributed a LOT here!
--
Brian MasinickRobin
Further reading:
http://smarden.org/runit/faq.htmlWindows is like a submarine. Open a window and serious problems will start.
punranger
I did see that forum post, but it wasn’t particularly helpful for me. As I said, I’m a fairly non-technical user, so I’m mainly interested in what the difference means for me in practical use. But that wasn’t even my main point. My apologies if I didn’t get that across – it seems that way to me anyway. My point was that the download page (and the wiki) should, IMHO, contain useful info for a first time user of antiX, preferably in plain language, to aid in deciding which version should be downloaded. Since the download page now (for the first time, afaik) in fact highlights the choice of init system, I thought it would be a good idea to inform the user of the consequences of that choice, in the same way the difference between full and base is explained. Saying that one is the default is of course useful. But it leaves me curious. (Why are there even two init systems? What is the difference for an antiX user?) Experience has taught me that means someone else is probably curious too. I thought that kind of info is too important to be found hidden away in a forum post you have to search for yourself and decipher. When I visited the antiX download page for the first time, I spent quite a lot of time figuring out what all the options meant. It’s only easy if you know it already.
antiX linux: The best way to revive an old computer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCTaUAP6sSg
calciumsodium
This is just from my own experience using antiX runit and antiX sysVinit.
1. With regards to boot up:
On a two-core CPU, it is about the same in terms of time to boot up on the two init systems. But on a four-core CPU, I do notice that runit is faster. But the difference is not that much.2. With regards to shut down:
I notice that runit shuts down faster. Sometimes in sysVinit, it takes a longer time to stop a process, hence a longer pause. This can be a pain to wait for it to shut down in the sysvinit system. With runit, I have confidence that it will shut down quickly.3. SysVinit is rock solid in terms of performance. It has been tested for a long time. When I am using sysVinit, I have confidence that there will be no extra input/output logs to the hard drive. With runit, I always have to make sure that I disable the logs. There is always that nagging thought of where the logs are turned off. Otherwise the system will use up your hard drive. But, if you have made sure the logs are turned off, the runit system will perform as well as the sysVinit system.
4. I can do crontab jobs in sysVinit antiX systems. I have not been able to do crontab jobs in the antiX 21 and antiX 23 a1 runit systems. If someone can show me how, that would be great. The same crontab command that is successful in the sysVinit system would not work in the runit system.
So there are subtle intricacies in each init system.
Brian Masinick
This is just from my own experience using antiX runit and antiX sysVinit.
1. With regards to boot up:
On a two-core CPU, it is about the same in terms of time to boot up on the two init systems. But on a four-core CPU, I do notice that runit is faster. But the difference is not that much.2. With regards to shut down:
I notice that runit shuts down faster. Sometimes in sysVinit, it takes a longer time to stop a process, hence a longer pause. This can be a pain to wait for it to shut down in the sysvinit system. With runit, I have confidence that it will shut down quickly.3. SysVinit is rock solid in terms of performance. It has been tested for a long time. When I am using sysVinit, I have confidence that there will be no extra input/output logs to the hard drive. With runit, I always have to make sure that I disable the logs. There is always that nagging thought of where the logs are turned off. Otherwise the system will use up your hard drive. But, if you have made sure the logs are turned off, the runit system will perform as well as the sysVinit system.
4. I can do crontab jobs in sysVinit antiX systems. I have not been able to do crontab jobs in the antiX 21 and antiX 23 a1 runit systems. If someone can show me how, that would be great. The same crontab command that is successful in the sysVinit system would not work in the runit system.
So there are subtle intricacies in each init system.
That is true. Perhaps that is something that we can get configured before the final release takes place. Some people may WANT logs, but we could potentially have them not enabled, or alternatively provide a choice when configuring the system. This is a matter worth discussing further.
Interested parties, please state your position, interests and reasons.
Thanks!
--
Brian Masinick
anticapitalista
@calciumsodium makes a good point which is why we still provide separate iso files for sysVinit (still recommended for most users) and runit.
I prefer runit, but there is a learning curve if you want more than just a simple set up.
Although stopping and starting services is quite easy once you know how and for those runit services we provide, it is far from trivial to set up your own eg for pipewire.
Debian still provides sysVinit ‘service’ scripts for many programmes (though this is declining due to its total commitment to systemd) and next to none for runit.runit is a ‘frozen’ project, considered complete and bug-free by its author.
sysVinit still gets some bug fixes (mostly minor). Interestingly, jesse from DistroWatch is the sysVinit maintainer.The future?
For antiX it is certainly not with systemd init.
It *might* be with other ‘modern’ alternatives such as S6 and dinit.
In the immediate future ie antiX-23, we will ship both sysVinit and runit isos.Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.
antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.
PPC
I know nothing about init systems. If someone puts up a small “how to” about enabling or disabling logs, then I can try creating a small yad GUI for that (if no other GUI exists).
From what I’ve read here in the forum: if possible, logs should be off- if people with enough know-how to understand them require them to be on, I assume they know how to turn them on… The regular “end user” knows nothing about that (neither do I, and I consider myself an advanced user)
I only used cron jobs once (to run a check for updates once a day), long ago, and I had to read some tutorials on that. MX does have a GUI for cronjobs- can it be ported to antiX? Is it compatible with runit?P.
Brian Masinick
/var/log is where all logs exist. Directly beneath this directory are multiple logs for slimski, syslog, ufw, user, auth, alternatives, daemon, debug, dpkg, kern, and messages. /var/log/runit contains the following subdirectories.
acpid bluetooth getty-tty3 rsync saned ssh ufw
acpi-support connman getty-ttyS0 rsyslog smartmontools sudo- This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Brian Masinick. Reason: slimski
--
Brian MasinickBrian Masinick
https://serverfault.com/questions/626436/how-do-you-configure-runit-logging contains some discussion on configuration of runit logs.
The Arch Wiki generally has good information about most Linux topics; some is specific to Arch Linux, but a lot of it is general enough to get good general information; I look there when I am lacking information and I’m having difficulty locating it.
Accordingly https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Runit has information, even though the page itself states “Warning: Arch Linux only has official support for systemd. When using runit as your init system, please mention so in support requests.”. We don’t care about that because we’re looking for information and we do not want anything that pertains to systemd anyway!Notable bullets –
* runsv – supervises a process, and optionally a log service for that process.
* svlogd – a simple but powerful logger, includes auto-rotation based on different methods (time, size, etc), post-processing, pattern matching, and socket (remote logging) options. Say goodbye to logrotate and the need to stop your services to rotate logs.--
Brian MasinickBrian Masinick
Further reading
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard (2015). “Logging”. The daemontools family. Frequently Given Answers.
Gerrit Pape. “How do I create a new service directory with an appendant log service?”. runit Frequently Asked Questions.
Daniel J. Bernstein. “How do I create a service directory with a log?”. daemontools Frequently Asked Questions.
from https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/209574/how-to-log-output-to-log-file-using-runit--
Brian Masinick
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
