- This topic has 29 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated Mar 22-3:45 am by Anonymous.
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marcelocripe
Hi guys,
I have doubts about Menu> Desktops> Other Desktops.
What is displayed in this menu are the other “Window Manager” and not “Other Desktops”. Is my understanding correct?
If what I understood is correct, would it be necessary to change these terms (“Desktops” and “Other Desktops”) in the original English language version by “Window Manager” and “Other Window Manager”?
The “Desktop 1” and “Desktop 2” are identified in the rectangles numbered 1 and 2 next to the shortcut icon of the internet browser as can be seen in the antiX 19.3 full English screen shot.
The interpretation of the translators in the European Portuguese language was to call “Other Desktops” by “Desktop Environment”.
I hope I’m not making a fuss about the translations I get from internet translators regarding the meanings of the terms used in antiX.
marcelocripe
(Original text in Brazilian Portuguese)———-
Olá caros,
Eu possuo dúvidas quanto ao Menu > Desktops > Other Desktops.
O que é exibido neste menu são os outros “Window Manager” e não “Other Desktops”. Está correto o meu entendimento?
Se o que eu compreendi estiver correto, será que seria necessário alterar estes termos (“Desktops” e “Other Desktops”) na versão original em idioma Inglês por “Window Manager” e “Other Window Manager”?
Os “Desktop 1” e “Desktop 2” são identificados nos retângulos numerados por 1 e 2 ao lado no ícone de atalho do navegador de internet como pode ser visto na captura de tela em idioma Inglês do antiX 19.3 full.
A interpretação dos tradutores em idioma Português Europeu foi de chamar “Other Desktops” por “Desktop Environment”.
Eu espero não estar fazendo confusão com as traduções que eu recebo dos tradutores da internet em relação aos significados dos termos utilizados no antiX.
marcelocripe
(Texto original em idioma Português do Brasil)Anonymous
What is displayed in this menu are the other “Window Manager” and not “Other Desktops”.
Is my understanding correct?Your
understandinginterpretation could be (or not) correct.
That interpretation may be fitting if one equates “workspace” with “desktop”
and associates “window manager” with “graphical environment”
(Yes, the “Other Desktops” menu action does not perform “switch workspaces”)This point of confusion is inevitable.
We (collectively) do not have a precise term to exactly describe certain components
and sometimes, where a precise terms DO exist, they are used (spoken//written) too loosely.examples:
____________________
display manager
vs login manager
(vs session manager)
____________________
terminal
vs terminal emulator
vs commandline
vs “(drop to) shell”
vs console
vs tty
____________________
desktop
vs desktop session
vs window manager
vs desktop environment
also:
desktop(s) ←→ virtual desktops ←→ workspacesUpon login (from the choices currently offered by antiX Full at the SLiM login screen)
one may choose a “window manager only” desktop session
or
one may choose a “desktop (icon)manager + window manager” desktop session.aside:
….. While working on SLiM-}slimski, I have proposed a more generic (yet more accurate, IMO) term:
….. the “thing” being chosen is a sessiontypeA discrete (defined by its role) type of component, called “session manager” does exist.
However, no component fulfilling the role of “session manager” is preinstalled in antiX because none of the preinstalled window managers, and few among the preinstalled programs, would really benefit from having an additional “session manager” present and continually running.A “session manager” would collect state(ful) information from each running program, enabling the user to “save” the state upon logout, and upon next login the session manager would restore the desktop(environment) state to match. Hurrah! This avoids the need to restart each program, the need to again load documents into editors… but across more than a decade, the secnario has remained an unfulfilled promise (promise of accurate “return to prior state” functionality). Many programs, probably MOST desktop programs, lack the ability to “talk to” a session manager (in order to communicate details of their current “state”).
.
Menu> Desktops> Other Desktops
^— Yes, inexact, but not less descriptively accurate than whatever loosely-defined phrase might replace it.seaken64
Well, I don’t have the background in Linux terminology to help better translate certain terms. All I know is that many terms can be used interchangeably and the exact meaning of the writer is gathered from the context. For instance, when we say “desktop environment” we could mean how the session is setup with a combination of Windows Manager and Desktop Icon Manager, as in “space-icewm” used in antiX. But we could also mean it generically, to describe the metaphor for the user interface. Or we could be identifying a specific Desktop Environment such as XFCE, or KDE, etc.
antiX does create a desktop environment. But it does not use a prepared Desktop Environment that is curated by the developers and community of said DE, say XFCE. antiX’s desktop environments, or “Desktops”, are a collection of separate tools that have been scripted to work together to mange the user’s environment or interface to the system, the session. antiX will let you change that desktop environment (generic term) on the fly, from rox-icewm to space-icewm for example. Technically antiX is using a Window Manager plus a Desktop Icon Manager and is not a full-blown “Desktop Environment” like XFCE. But we still use the terms desktop environment, desktop, or desktop session to describe the user interface in a generic way.
It’s confusing isn’t it?
seaken64
- This reply was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by seaken64.
oops
…antiX does create a desktop environment. But it does not use a prepared Desktop Environment … antiX will let you change that desktop environment (generic term) on the fly, from rox-icewm to space-icewm for example. Technically antiX is using a Window Manager plus a Desktop Icon Manager and is not a full-blown “Desktop Environment” like XFCE…
It’s confusing isn’t it?
seaken64
Not really, in fact antix use a semi-WindowManager or a semi-DE. 😉
BobC
antiX has rationally defined the meaning of a “Desktop Environment” to mean a combination of a Window Manager and File Manager that launches from Desktop Icons.
Most distros only provide one combination of Window Manager and File Manager that launches from desktop icons, and they call it a “Desktop Environment”.
antiX is just allowing the user to choose whatever combination they are most comfortable with.
marcelocripe
Hello Skidoo, Seaken64, Oops and BobC.
I thank you for your considerations.
Is that why there is the “X” of the antiX?
So we have characteristics of each element: “Desktop Environments”, “Window Manager”, “File Manager”, “Desktops” and “desktop (icon) manager” combined and available in antiX.
However, we only have a space to identify a list of options, apparently “Desktops” or “Other Desktops” causes confusion, as there are two “Desktops” listed, 1 and 2. In addition, this term “Other Desktops” does not transmit the meaning of what are the other options available. Apparently, the most coherent would be “Other Desktop Environments” in place of “Other Desktops” and it would be necessary to change “Desktops” to “Desktop Environments”.
As was very well accounted for by Skidoo at topic, antiX has several possibilities for combinations of features, making it mutable and extremely flexible.
As I typed, BobC sent fantastic definitions on the subject that will help me make the best possible translation adaptation for Brazilian Portuguese. But, I can’t think exclusively about my language or how users who speak the same language as me will be able to understand antiX and its many features. We have to think about all users on the planet and the different languages available on antiX.
However, I think that, it would be interesting that the administrators could express their considerations and point of view on this matter. And who knows, consider implementing the necessary changes in antiX 21, not because I am proposing or asking, but because it is necessary to make the information available in its proper places and with appropriate terms.
Perhaps users coming from other GNU/Linux distributions can more easily understand what “Other Desktop Environments” are than “Other Desktops”.
I am grateful to the Portuguese translators of antiX / MX Linux and their enormous capacity to interpret / adapt the translation into the European Portuguese language in both operating systems.
Grateful.
marcelocripe
(Original text in Brazilian Portuguese)———-
Olá Skidoo, Seaken64, Oops e BobC.
Eu agradeço por suas considerações.
Será que é por isso que existe o “X” do antiX?
Então temos características de cada elemento: “Desktop Environments”, “Window Manager”, “File Manager”, “Desktops” e “desktop (icon)manager” combinados e disponíveis no antiX.
Contudo, possuímos apenas um espaço para identificar uma lista de opções, ao que parece “Desktops” ou “Other Desktops” causa confusão, pois existem dois “Desktops” enumerados, 1 e 2. Além de que este termo “Other Desktops” não transmite o significado do que são as outras opções disponíveis. Ao que parece, o mais coerente seria “Other Desktop Environments” no lugar de “Other Desktops” e seria necessário alterar “Desktops” para “Desktop Environments”.
Conforme foi muito bem contabilizado pelo Skidoo no tópico, o antiX possui várias possibilidades de combinações de recursos, tornando-o mutável e extremamente flexível.
Enquanto eu digitava, o BobC enviou definições fantásticas sobre o assunto que me ajudarão a fazer a melhor adaptação possível da tradução para o idioma Português do Brasil. Mas, eu não posso pensar exclusivamente no meu idioma ou em como os usuários falantes do mesmo idioma que eu conseguirão compreender o antiX e as suas diversas funcionalidades. Temos que pensar em todos os usuários do planeta e dos diversos idiomas disponíveis no antiX.
Contudo, penso eu que, seria interessante que os administradores pudessem expressar as suas considerações e ponto de vista sobre este assunto. E quem sabe, considerarem implementar as alterações necessárias no antiX 21, não por que eu estou propondo ou pedindo, mas porque é necessário disponibilizar as informações nos seus devidos lugares e com termos apropriados.
Talvez os usuários vindos de outras distribuições GNU/Linux consigam perceber mais facilmente o que são “Other Desktop Environments” do que “Other Desktops”.
Eu agradeço aos tradutores Portugueses do antiX/MX Linux e a sua enorme capacidade de interpretação/adaptação da tradução para o idioma Português Europeu em ambos os sistemas operacionais.
Grato.
marcelocripe
(Texto original em idioma Português do Brasil)oops
… the most coherent would be “Other Desktop Environments” in place of “Other Desktops” and it would be necessary to change “Desktops” to “Desktop Environments”.
… Yes, “Desktop Environments” or “WMs on the fly”
Robin
These improvements in english language don’t need to be done in program files/script files itself necessarily. The message Identificator strings can stay untouched, whereas you may add your improvements to “en_GB” and “en_US” language files instead, which is independent from the respective programmer. (It’s a lot of work to exchange a single sign within a message string in a program directly. Not the replacement itself, but the aftermath, concerning any existing translations to other languages also)
When doing it this way you’ll get sorted out different ways of expression in GB and US flavour english language also:
“localisation” vs. “localization”
“flavor” vs. “flavour”
…This could be achieved simply by adding “en_GB” and “en_US” to the available transifex languages for the antiX project.
- This reply was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by Robin.
- This reply was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by Robin.
- This reply was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by Robin.
Windows is like a submarine. Open a window and serious problems will start.
Xecure
I am against changing the name “Desktops” > “Other Desktops”. It is my impression this is the correct wording.
The “1” “2” numbers in icewm menu is related to “Virtual Desktops”. At least, that is how I have called them since long ago.In English, a Desktop is an Office Table or Workbench. You place the tools on the table and work on it. The Desktop Session is the same thing. You choose a “Working Table” between the Desktop sessions available (Be them Window managers+panel/wallpaper/desktop-icons/other-tools or Desktop Environments + other tools) and launch programs and interact with those programs, as if they were tools on the table. Some Desktops will give you an option to magically and instantly switch between tables with different tools, which for me are Virtual Desktops. You are running the same Desktop session, but can operate on different virtual tables at will, without having to setup the Table from scratch.
People will get used to “Área de Trabalho”, as in Desktop, and differentiate them from “Áreas de Trabalho virtuais”. Once learnt, you just get use to it. The language is accurate enough.
antiX Live system enthusiast.
General Live Boot Parameters for antiX.oops
I am against changing the name “Desktops” > “Other Desktops”.
…Me too, but it is also for a marketing aspect. (Only antiX do that on the fly, I guess)
ile
hello marcelocripe
so much attention to communicating antiX. ,, You are thorough. Thank You.
window manager is One component
in the cornucopia of Desktop.Desktop is gathered, collected components
engaging the user with
the Presentation, Representation, Reflection
encompass comprise of interfaces and themes and default behavior.I think “Desktop” is the right word. opinion.
In English, a Desktop is
in Murrica a desktop is someplace ta set muh beer yah
in the cornucopia of Desktop.
Desktop is gathered, collected components
engaging the user with
the Presentation, Representation, Reflection
encompass comprise of interfaces and themes and default behavior.ile is quite a poet.
I fed the above to googleTranslate
English –} Korean –} English:
The horn of the desktop.
Desktop is a collected component collected and collected
It comes with users
Presentation, Expression, Reflection
Contains interfaces and themes and default behavior.English –} Chinese (traditional) –} English:
Jubu on the desktop.
Desktop collection, collecting components
Use with users
Demonstration, expressing, reflection
Contains the composition of interface and topics and default behavior.English –} Vietnamese –} English:
In the corneal of the desktop.
Desktop calculator is collected, components are collected
Participate in users with
Presentation, representative, reflection
Includes default interfaces and themes and behaviors.English –} Thai –} English:
In the abundance of the desktop
Combining the desktop compilation
User participation as well
Presentation of being a reflection representation
Surrounded, consisting of interfaces and themes and beginner behaviorEnglish –} Russian –} English:
in the desktop cortex.
Desktop Computer Collected Components
User involvement S.
Presentation, performance, reflection
Encompasses the inclusion of interfaces and themes and default behavior.English –} Turkish –} English:
Desktop in abundance. Camels.
The desktop is collected, the components are collected
interact with the user. Always camels.
Presentation, Representation, Thinking
consists of skins, themes, and default behaviors.
Camels everywhereEnglish –} Greek –} English:
on the tired desktop.
The desktop is concentrated, accessories are collected
Activating the user with
presentation, representation, reflection
Includes interfaces and issues and default behavior.Firstly: I’m with you, believing that “desktop” is the correct wording in English language. I’m fine with it.
Nevertheless, please let me try to explain the difficulty marcelocripe faces when trying to find a fitting translation (and initially understand what is meant by using this expression in this place).
The main problem is the ambiguity of this word. This is not a problem for people speaking English language, but this turns when you have to translate (even worse when you don’t know the language and depend on an online translator only). Google-translate is not what you would call a lifesaver, when its about differentiating between some more possible meanings.You can often let online translate a sentence forth and back to the original language, getting back the correct result, without even noticing its sense was misunderstood in foreign language completely.
And even if Google translates the example always to “desktop” in many languages (since the word was adopted as an Anglicism) this doesn’t mean people in foreign countries can make something of it. E.g. if you ask ten people in Germany you’ll get at least three different answers: Some people do know desktop as a complete computer (desktop vs. laptop), others do know it as the graphical user interface screen you work on, and others again do know that it is something you have two or more you can switch between (virtual desktops). Some people do know randomly one or two of the meanings, and some do know all of them. (I omit on purpose people who know “desktop” only in the classic, literal sense of the word, as a piece of furniture). What is true for the average German population, is even more true for countries where many people aren’t familiar with the use of computers for as many years as you (and me) are.
So, please keep in mind the wording “desktop” –> “other desktops”, “change desktop” might be confusing a bit for non anglophone participants. But since we have translations of antiX to many languages, which can handle this individually, it shouldn’t be a problem. We have transifex.
To put it in a nutshell, @marcelocripe: please let the anglophone speakers keep the expression “desktop” for whatever they feel like using it for. And let’s make the best of it we can in the translations, always with a heaped spoonful of intuition in finding the best way of expression in the destination language.
Just my two pennies worth.
- This reply was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by Robin.
- This reply was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by Robin.
- This reply was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by Robin.
Windows is like a submarine. Open a window and serious problems will start.
(Only antiX do that on the fly, I guess)
hmm, I’ve encountered at least two other distros which offer this feature.
Foggy memory, but I’m guessing they were Semplice Linux and GALPon MiniNo
.
Also, Zorin Linux… and possibly one of the French distros. Voyager?
.
.
edit:
surprisingcoincidencewikipedia: Salience (neuroscience)
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