Package Version Selection

[Member Iggy64]

I am a brand-new antiX user, having just done a full install to my system drive. I have the default repos enabled:
– deb bullseye, bullseye-backports, bullseye-security, bullseye-updates (main contrib nonfree)
– antix bullseye (main nosystemd nonfree)

Over the past 15 years, I have used several Debian-based distros on my 4 machines. Most recently, I have primarily used
Debian itself, as well as Devuan. I see antiX as being more in line with my taste for simpler, modular systems.

One of the first things I do when am familiarizing myself with a new distro is to install Cherrytree, a notetaking app in
which I record all my tests and tweaks during set up.

When I run

apt show -a cherrytree

I find that there are three versions available:
– 0.99.30 from http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian bullseye/main amd64 Packages
– 0.99.19 from http://mirrors.rit.edu/mxlinux/mx-packages/antix/bullseye bullseye/main amd64 Packages
– 0.39.0 from http://mirrors.rit.edu/mxlinux/mx-packages/antix/bullseye bullseye/nosystemd amd64 Packages

The first two of these have roughly 20 dependencies each.
The third one has only 6, and none of these are among the dependencies of the first two.

Now, I am keen on trying to keep systemd components out of my installation, so I have been reviewing the antiX documention
to figure which of these versions is the best bet.

I looked into Synaptic, and it defaults to 0.99.30; but if a ask to force a different version, it does show me the other
two available.

I looked also at the antiX Package Installer, which lists Cherrytree within the Graphics group. But I don’t see where it
tells me what version it has in mind.

All this leads me to ask:

– What all is in the “nosystemd” section of the antiX repo? I read that there are “fixed” versions of deb packages that
originally contained systemd components. Are there other packages there, as well?

– What is the best strategy for avoiding systemd pollution when installing Cherrytree?

– What is the best strategy for avoiding systemd pollution when installing ANY package?

– Are appimages something to be considered? (There is one for Cherrytree, for example.

I am grateful for perspective/advice I can gain before I proceed further.

[Member sybok]

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1) Nosystemd section of antiX repo:
You read well.
As far as presence of other packages is concerned, I do not know, not sure why would any be needed to be there.
2)+3) Avoiding ‘systemd’ pollution:
‘systemd’ will not be installed (blocked by apt pinning implemented in file ‘/etc/apt/preferences.d/00systemd’).
You can always try a dry-run install to see which packages would be pulled in, e.g.
sudo apt-get install --dry-run <package-name>
4) AppImages:
There are people who prefer to install packages using the packaging tool ‘apt*’ (apt, apt-get, aptitude) from the repositories.
This should handle dependencies well, packages are auto-updated when regularly running updates/upgrades.
Debian-stable may use older packages but they back-port as much security fixes into them as possible.

There are users who do not mind installing “portable/appimage/flatpack” versions though the dependencies and their handling can be more “fuzzy” (you hope the developer handles all the dependencies correctly, including updating related/bundled-in libraries whenever a security issue is discovered in them etc.).

BTW, my bullseye-based (upgraded from antiX-19.2_x64-full) system has version ‘0.99.30+dfsg-1’ installed.
Dummy listing packages with systemd in name (but ignoring those with ‘nosystemd’):
dpkg -l | grep -i 'systemd' | grep -vi 'nosystemd'
shows no obvious “infestation” in my system.

[Member Xunzi_23]

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hi iggy64, fatpack is a person intense dislike.
Appimage often very useful, I use LibreWolf and Ungoogled Chromium appimages.
after unpacking them. Most appimages can be renamed.zip then unpacked for content inspection.
I also unpack to speed up start times. The only real disadvantage is if a LibC mismatch or rarely other
compile options are bothersome applications will not start. And updates are usualy manual.

On some packages a whole string of dependencys can be avoided as appimages are designed to be portable
but they do not pull in a nearly complete new OS or desktop as fatpack does.

Spelling of fatpack is on purpose…
I have always thought the name is programmers humor, same for snap, once snapped packaging is broken.

as sybok noted SystemD is blocked by pinning but only antiX 23 is really sys d free. Previous antiX versions
use shimming, or compatibility packages to allow sysV or Runit usage.

[Moderator caprea]

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Xunzi_23 wrote:

but only antiX 23 is really sys d free. Previous antiX versions
use shimming, or compatibility packages to allow sysV or Runit usage.

Not true. antiX was always completely systemd free and never used shimming, MX Linux does though.

[Member marcelocripe]

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Hello Iggy64.

Welcome to Antix Linux and the Forum.

I don’t know how to write in English and send my texts translated by the internet translator. I hope you can understand everything. If your native language is not English, please translate my original Portuguese language text in Brazil directly into your language with the help of internet translators that you will get a much better result.

Regardless of your level of knowledge about GNU/Linux, I recommend you read these excellent tutorials created by @PPC:

What is antiX and how to try it out or install it.
Short essential how-to list for the complete Linux newbie.
How-to install applications – 2020 version.
How to: correctly use antiX forum.

When I started using Antix, I read the tutorials that the PPC created, these readings spared me a lot of my time and I think it saves the time of any new Antix user. Your time will not be lost with these readings, it will seem to be much easier than you could imagine. You will not waste your time with internet searches or even create new topics, on the contrary, you will earn a lot of time from these readings. I recommend you try the work areas that have “ZZZ” in your name. I usually use the “ZZZ-Icewm” or “ZZZ-JWM” or “ZZZ-Fluxbox” (each of these work areas have their own characteristics and consume more or less resources). ZZZFM will be the default file manager in your desktop, it is very similar to other file managers from other GNU/Linux distributions and Windows XP. To access the other Antix work areas, click the Antix menu (or right -click), desktop, switch between desktops and click on the work area name, instantly to desktop will be loaded.

In the Portuguese language area of this forum, there are several tutorials that may be useful for you . Use an automatic translator from the internet so you can understand the text.

Whenever you need to request technical help or support in this forum, explain in detail what is happening, do not save the words, be thorough when writing, enter the characteristics of your computer, such as the brand and the model. If possible, post the result of the command $ Inxi -zv7 of the terminal, copy and paste here in the message of the topic you create in this forum.

When you start a topic or participate with a post, remember to check the option “Notify Me of Follow-Up Replies via email”, marking this option, you will receive a message in your email box whenever there are answers from topic in question.

I am a brand-new antiX user, having just done a full install to my system drive.

As you didn’t exactly describe which antiX ISO you installed, I assume you used the full antiX ISO. If you have installed the 32-bit or 64-bit antiX full ISO, then Cherrytree is already installed by default.

– Are appimages something to be considered? (There is one for Cherrytree, for example.

I always prefer programs with the AppImage format, as I know that antiX will not be affected by mismatched dependencies or conflicts between dependencies.

– What is the best strategy for avoiding systemd pollution when installing ANY package?

I hope the antiX experts can answer this question of yours, as it will serve me and others.

marcelocripe
(Original text in Brazilian Portuguese language)

– – – – –

Olá Iggy64.

Seja bem-vindo(a) ao antiX Linux e ao fórum.

Eu não sei escrever em idioma Inglês e envio os meus textos traduzidos pelo tradutor da internet. Eu espero que você consiga compreender tudo. Caso o seu idioma nativo não seja o Inglês, por favor, traduza o meu texto original em idioma Português do Brasil diretamente para o seu idioma com a ajuda dos tradutores da internet que você obterá um resultado muito melhor.

Independentemente do seu nível de conhecimento sobre o GNU/Linux, eu recomendo você ler estes excelentes tutoriais criados pelo @PPC:

What is antiX and how to try it out or install it.
Short essential how-to list for the complete Linux newbie.
How-to install applications – 2020 version.
How to: correctly use antiX forum.

Quando eu comecei a utilizar o antiX, eu li os tutoriais que o PPC criou, estas leituras me pouparam muito do meu tempo e acho que poupa o tempo de qualquer novo usuário do antiX. O seu tempo não será perdido com estas leituras, tudo parecerá ser muito mais fácil do que você poderia imaginar. Você não perderá o seu tempo com pesquisas na internet ou até mesmo em criar novos tópicos, ao contrário, você ganhará muito tempo com estas leituras. Eu recomendo você experimentar as áreas de trabalho que possuem “zzz” em seu nome. Eu costumo utilizar o “zzz-IceWM” ou “zzz-JWM” ou “zzz-Fluxbox” (cada uma destas áreas de trabalho possuem características próprias e consomem mais ou menos recursos). O zzzFM será o gerenciador de arquivos padrão da sua área de trabalho, ele é muito semelhante aos outros gerenciadores de arquivos das outras distribuições GNU/Linux e do Windows XP. Para acessar as outras áreas de trabalho do antiX, clique no menu do antiX (ou clique com o botão direito na área de trabalho), Área de Trabalho, Alternar Entre as Áreas de Trabalho e clique sobre o nome da área de trabalho, instantaneamente a área de trabalho será carregada.

Na área em idioma Português deste fórum, possui diversos tutoriais que podem ser úteis para você. Utilize um tradutor automático da internet para você poder conseguir entender o texto.

Sempre que você precisar solicitar ajuda ou suporte técnico neste fórum, explique com detalhes o que está acontecendo, não economize as palavras, seja minucioso ao escrever, informe as características do seu computador, como a marca e o modelo. Se for possível, poste o resultado do comando $ inxi -zv7 do terminal, copie e cole aqui na mensagem do tópico que você for criar neste fórum.

Quando você iniciar algum tópico ou participar com alguma postagem, lembre-se de marcar a opção “Notify me of follow-up replies via email”, marcando esta opção, você receberá uma mensagem na sua caixa de e-mail sempre que houver respostas do tópico em questão.

I am a brand-new antiX user, having just done a full install to my system drive.

Como você não descreveu extamente qual foi a ISO do antiX que você instalou, eu suponho que você tenha utilizado a ISO full do antiX. Se você instalou a ISO full do antiX de 32 bits ou 64 bits, então o Cherrytree já vem instalado por padrão.

– Are appimages something to be considered? (There is one for Cherrytree, for example.

Eu sempre dou preferência aos programas com o formato AppImage, pois eu sei que o antiX não será afetado por dependências desencontradas ou conflitos entre as dependências.

– What is the best strategy for avoiding systemd pollution when installing ANY package?

Eu espero que os especialistas dop antiX possam responder a esta sua pergunta, pois servirá para mim e para as outras pessoas.

marcelocripe
(Texto original em idioma Português do Brasil)

[Moderator christophe]

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Regarding staying systemd-free:
In my experience, simply running
sudo apt install cherrytree
will install your programs without systemd. From what I’ve seen, people tend to run into problems when overthinking & adjusting repos when they do not need to. Obviously, if you need to do so, and are experienced enough to know what you are doing, adjusting defaults (temporarily) may yield good results.
But I just go with the antiX defaults, and have had no problems.
(antiX is set up very robustly.)

confirmed antiX frugaler, since 2019

[Member sybok]

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One thing left rather vague is what does “systemd pollution” stand for?
Apart from the obvious ‘systemd’, does it include libraries providing compatibility with it such as ‘libelogind0’ (instead of ‘seatd’)?

@caprea:
Just curious. I noticed that @Xunzi_23 did also run sid-based antiX. Is your correction concerning shim or compatibility packages still valid for this one?
I could imagine that no shims entered the stable version but they might have been (at least temporarily) present in sid or testing in the early days of systemd’s adoption.

[Member Iggy64]

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@sybok: Thanks very much for your guidance. I was unaware of the /etc/apt/preferences.d/00systemd pinning idea. I seems to look for any package containing the literal string “systemd.” Does this mean that something like elogind would NOT be pinned? Also, are there other components of systemd (besides elogind) that are worth avoiding whenever possible?

I presume that most of this would have to be done by carefully examining package dependencies prior to installing anything. As a mere user, rather than a developer or even an advanced user, what other systemd components are of any concern?

I have had a similar issue with Pulseaudio in the past. Although I am a music enthusiast, I find I do not need Pulsaudio, and that ALSA gives me all the control I need, with no help from above. However, I have caught libpulse trying to sneak in as a dependency with various packages. No big deal; but I’d just as soon avoid this sort of thing. So I have related questions concerning systemd. What component names should I be watching out for when examining dependencies?

[Member Iggy64]

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@marcelocripe: Thanks for taking time to help steer this antiX newbie. I appreciate the list of resources, some of which I have already studied in detail. A couple of the others look like they will really help me further along.

And, yes, I did install antiX x64 full, and when I queried about Cherrytree

sudo apt-cache policy cherrytree

I learned that the 0.99.30 version was already installed by default. But I also saw that there were two other candidates available, both in the antix repos, one of which was in the “nosystemd” repo. This made me wonder whether the antix repo is supposed to be “safer,” and the antix/nosystemd section even more secure. My confusion here is what prompted me to submit my initial post. I’d like to understand the purpose and contents of these antix repos before I proceed much further. I have researched this on my own quite a bit, and I am usually pretty good at such things. But I have failed on this one.

Any further guidance on understanding these different repos and repo sections would be very helpful. I apologize for being unable (so far) to find the answers on my own.

[Member Iggy64]

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@christophe: Going with the antix defaults certainly sounds like a good straightforward approach. Presumably, anything that comes in the default install will be the default version. Likewise, anything installed via the antix Package Installer will be the antix default.

To be honest, I guess I have let myself get confused because:

– The installed version of cherrytree is from the bullseye main repo
– There exists an older version of cherrytree in the antix repo
– There exists yet another version in the “nosystemd” section of the antix repo.

I felt I would like to understand the purpose behind these additional versions, so I could make the best use of what antix has to offer.

As you said, though, maybe I am overthinking by looking too deeply into how antix works.

I really appreciated your perspective. Perhaps it will keep me from getting into trouble.

[Member marcelocripe]

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Any further guidance on understanding these different repos and repo sections would be very helpful. I apologize for being unable (so far) to find the answers on my own.

Your questions are all pertinent and are in line with the “NoSystemd” or “SystemD Free” philosophy of this community and the GNU/Linux distribution and that’s why I believe that an administrator will make your considerations and clarify your doubts.

I prefer the programs that are in the antiX repositories, as we know that the programs were repackaged in order to get rid of SystemD dependencies.

In my view, also from a mere user, at some point antiX will need to disconnect from the Debian repositories and align or share the other repositories with the other GNU/Linux distributions that are also free of SystemD, because repackaging the entire Debian repository Debian must be something impossible to do with just a few people, we would need to do a “repackaging campaign”.

@marcelocripe: Thanks for taking time to help steer this antiX newbie. I appreciate the list of resources, some of which I have already studied in detail. A couple of the others look like they will really help me further along.

I try to welcome every new member of this forum with these instructions, because they are exactly the instructions that I believe every newcomer to antiX will find useful. It took me a long time to receive these instructions and also to get them all together. You can also find many useful solutions (programs) created by this community at archive.org.

Iggy64, unfortunately, I know that many antiX newbies didn’t read the topics I indicated and then created several topics asking everything that was already very well explained by PPC. Every now and then you will read someone write “My crystal ball is defective, could you explain your problem in more detail?”.

– – – – –

Any further guidance on understanding these different repos and repo sections would be very helpful. I apologize for being unable (so far) to find the answers on my own.

As suas perguntas são todas pertinentes e estão alinhadas com a filosofia “NoSystemd” ou “SystemD Free” desta comunidade e da distribuição GNU/Linux e é por isso que eu acredito que um administrador irá fazer as suas considerações e esclarecer as suas dúvidas.

Eu dou preferência aos programas que estão nos repositórios do antiX, pois sabemos que os programas foram reempacotados com o intuito de se livrar das dependências do SystemD.

Na minha visão, também de um mero usuário, em algum momento o antiX precisará se desligar dos repositórios do Debian e se alinhar ou compartilhar os outros repositórios com as outras distribuição GNU/Linux que também sejam livres do SystemD, porque reempacotar todo o repositório do Debian deve ser algo impossível de ser feito com poucas pessoas, nós precisaríamos fazer um “mutirão do reempacotamento”.

@marcelocripe: Thanks for taking time to help steer this antiX newbie. I appreciate the list of resources, some of which I have already studied in detail. A couple of the others look like they will really help me further along.

Eu tento receber todo novo participante deste fórum com estas instruções, porque são exatamente as instruções que eu acredito serem úteis para todo novato no antiX. Eu levei muito tempo para receber estas instruções e també para conseguir reunir todas elas. Você também poderá encontrar muitas soluções (programas) úteis criados por esta comunidade no archive.org

Iggy64, infelizmente, eu sei que vários novatos no antiX não leram os tópicos que eu indiquei e depois criaram vários tópicos perguntando tudo que já foi muito bem explicado pelo PPC. Vez ou outra você vai ler alguém escrever “A minha bola de critral está com defeito, você poderia explicar com mais detalhes o seu problema?”.

[Member Iggy64]

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@marcelocripe: Thank you again for your welcoming words of encouragement. The added perspective you have provided is very helpful to me.

I confess that I am still a bit confused as to why the straight-debian version (0.99.30) is installed by default, while there is an alternative version (0.39.0)available in the antix repo nosystemd section.

Perhaps the straight-debian version is also systemd-free, and the version in the antix repo nosystemd section is just a left-over from the past. After all, its version number is very old (March 2020).

I’m really not trying to overthink this. I’m just trying to understand/appreciate the usefulness of the antix repos, so I can take full advantage of all the expertise and effort that has gone into them.

Thanks again for your support!

[Member sybok]

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‘libelogind0’ is not pinned.
But any package depending on ‘systemd’ is prevented from being installed by the packaging system tools such as ‘apt’ because of unmet dependencies — it depends on a package (here’s looking at you, ‘systemd’) that cannot be installed.
I believe the reason anticapitalista decided against blocking ‘libelogind0’ (or was it other ‘systemd’ related package?) was because some people use an unofficial desktop environment, perhaps it was LXDE.
I tried to verify the dependency by examining package LXDE and its dependencies on Debian packages but did not find it soon enough and I simply gave up.

https://www.debian.org/distrib/packages

[Member olsztyn]

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sybok wrote:

I tried to verify the dependency by examining package LXDE and its dependencies on Debian packages but did not find it soon enough and I simply gave up.

From what I recall LXDE the way it comes as default. as well as some other DEs, does install libelogind0 at some point. Similarly some other packages, such as VLC, the way they come. I believe anticapitalista has modified (on-going process as new versions are coming out) VLC and some other popular packages to not be dependent on libelogind0, which resulted in antiX specific versions to be installed.

As much as I know LXDE was not modified by anticapitalista to be libelogind0 free. So if someone installs LXDE as it comes, it will install libelogind0. However for those who want LXDE for the purpose of ‘mature look and integration’ of desktop environment, but want to stick to antiX infrastructure the way to do it is to install just Openbox and LXpanel.
This will provide LXDE look and feel as well as mature WM integration, without any need or requirement of libelogind0. Logout function is specified as desktop-session-exit.
This LX WM (rather than LXDE) as I tend to call it, is the fifth WM on antiX I have used for a long time now with no issues with it or any need for libelogind0.
Perfect for *elogind*-free antiX 22 and antiX 23.

• This reply was modified 4 weeks, 1 day ago by olsztyn.
• This reply was modified 4 weeks, 1 day ago by olsztyn.

Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
https://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

[Member Iggy64]

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Thanks once again to @sybok for the further explanation.

And thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Your shared experiences and suggested resources have expanded the antiX study materials I have added to my list.

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