Proposal: Creating a new sub-Forum dedicated to localization of apps

Forum Forums antiX-development Development Proposal: Creating a new sub-Forum dedicated to localization of apps

  • This topic has 6 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated Mar 23-2:07 am by marcelocripe.
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  • #137419
    Member
    PPC

      I’m not really sure if this proposal will catch on, but I just wrote a very long message to Marcelo, about the fact that he keeps insisting that folks that create scripts and programs should also have the extra work of commenting (almost) every single string that is marked for localization, in order to make life easier for the translation team.
      Since people that create scripts and apps are few and already have their hands full, I suggest creating a new forum category called something like “App’s localization” “App translation”, or something similar.
      On that sub forum, every time any new application is put out for localization on transifex, someone (either the creator, anticapitalista, robin, anyone) should create a thread about that app (ex: “my_awesome_antix_app.sh”), warn that’s up for localization and with a link to it’s git, to the script, to a .deb, that the translators can test and see where, and in which context some expressions appear. The translation team would have an ideal place to exchange ideas, and if need be, the coders could answer questions, when they can.
      I think this, with very little work for everyone involved, would be a very good tool to have extremely well localized apps.

      P.

      #137422
      Forum Admin
      rokytnji

        I can make the subforum. Chasing links and inserting them into the subforum I won’t have time to do.

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        #137425
        Member
        RJP

          For translating there is a good script for program makers.

          https://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/how-to-create-pot-file/

          #137426
          Member
          Robin

            What will be the difference to the existing translations sub forum, in which these announcements have been placed until now?

            Windows is like a submarine. Open a window and serious problems will start.

            #137427
            Member
            PPC

              Many thanks Roky, but lets wait and see…

              What will be the difference to the existing translations sub forum, in which these announcements have been placed by now?

              The idea is not to just place announcements, but also make sure that the translation team can access the code, to run the scripts/apps, making sure they really know what they are translating.
              I see no problem at all in adapting the current existing sub-forum to ALWAYS do the exact same thing- I suggested a new one because that would make it clear, to the translation time what exactly it’s for…
              I suggested that because, unlike Marcelo thinks, when I finish a script, all I want is to be rid of it, and see it working, and not invest more time on it, adding comments to the translation- I respect people like you that not just create scripts but also annotate the localization file, so everyone can understand what they are translating…

              EDIT: for example, you @Robin usually link to the source of your script, so users can test what they are translating. I’ve created lots of scripts and usually I don’t do that. As far as I’m aware no one else does that… In fact my proposal was akin to suggesting an “official” policy about the localization of new (or new proposed versions of current) scripts/apps. Every time one is put up for localization, a link to it’s code would be provided, in the announcement on the forum, making sure no one is translating blindly. To make sure people know what they are translating, there could be a default comment, always on the first string of the localization file, suggesting that the translator can try the script/program in it’s link, available at our forum’s “Translation” sub forum. (All my scripts are in the forum, but I can tell many translators just see the localization on Transifex and get to work, not even having seen the script working ever before. This can lead to localization problems like the one I recently noticed, on the runit manager…

              Eventually, antiX will be so “feature rich” that the rate of new apps created by our community will begin to decrease. There’s always room for improvement, but antiX is currently almost as feature rich as any other DE based distro, and has lots of exclusive features that rarely come out of the box with any other OS…

              P.

              • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 2 days ago by PPC.
              • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 2 days ago by PPC.
              #137430
              Member
              Robin

                when I finish a script, all I want is to be rid of it, and see it working, and not invest more time on it, adding comments to the translation

                Please take into account: You are the only one knowing the code you have written, and hence you are the only person who easily and fast can create the developers notes: You know what each line means, without lengthy code analysis. This is way more time consuming for anybody besides you. Any other person who you expect to add the comments will have to study your code to understand it as you do, to be able to write the comments, and might easily fail, e.g. due to double translation (you translate the code from your language to English, and somebody else has to translate the code from English to his/her language to understand it, create the comment, and translate then the comment to english. That’s not a really satisfying procedure. He might easily fail to understand your intention of a line, as the translators do at transifex.
                For example, zzzFM has no developers notes for a simple reason: I don’t understand the code, so I can’t create them. It would have been up to the developer to write them. They are called developers notes for a reason… Please rethink whether there is a chance you could create these developers notes for your scripts, as you are the developer.

                not just create scripts but also annotate the localization file, so everyone can understand what they are translating

                That’s your job when writing code, without respect of whether it’s about scripts or something written in a programming language.

                Windows is like a submarine. Open a window and serious problems will start.

                #137569
                Member
                marcelocripe

                  PPC wrote:

                  I’m not really sure if this proposal will catch on, but I just wrote a very long message to Marcelo, about the fact that he keeps insisting that folks that create scripts and programs should also have the extra work of commenting (almost) every single string that is marked for localization, in order to make life easier for the translation team.

                  In every long conversation there is a context, if we don’t tell the context, no one will know what it is about. I think it should be like this in any language.
                  On March 21, 2024, PPC created the topic “Updated Runit Service Manager pt_PT localization“, about the translations of the words “Up”, “Down” and “Startup”, in the language “pt” and in “pt_BR” which were poorly translated due to the context in which they are used not being appropriate to what the program really means.
                  Well, I immediately corrected the three words in Transifex, as understood and indicated by the PPC, at the same time I compared the automatic translation of the languages “fr_BE”, “it” and “de” (because they are the languages where we have active and participatory people on this forum and who work hard for the good of antiX). Of the 5 languages analyzed (two by PPC, “pt” and “pt_BR”, and three by me, “fr_BE”, “it” and “de”), 4 languages have wrong translations.
                  My answer to the wrong translations is quite simple, the volunteer translators were “deceived” or “led” into error because there was no type of comment from the programmer.
                  I highlight that the “runit-service-manager” program was translated on September 3, 2021, so it means that it has been translated wrong for more than 2 and a half years and will only be corrected when the package is updated. But first you will need to collect the latest translations from Transifex, send the latest translations to antiX’s GitLab, repackage the “runit-service-manager” program and make it available in updates.
                  What happens is that the antiX processes or procedures are the same as those I found in August 2020 and these processes or procedures have not evolved since I started to understand how everything is done in antiX and MX.
                  I have already presented several suggestions on the forum on how I imagine the processes or procedures could be to become better and with less rework.
                  I don’t know where the topics I presented my suggestions are, so I will try to describe the processes or procedures as they currently are. Correct me if I’m wrong.

                  1-All people involved are volunteers.
                  2-The program is created in English by a volunteer programmer. (It should be in your native language.)
                  3-The program is packaged by a volunteer and is distributed in updates or available in English-language repositories. (That is, without any type of translations and the rest of the world will have to use the program without any type of translation.)
                  4-Someone complains that the respective program is not translated. (The “Translations” area has several topics of this type.)
                  5-The “.pot” file is created from the most recent version of the program “.sh, .bin, etc.”.
                  6-The “.pot” file is sent to Transifex.
                  7-Several people donate their time and volunteer work to translate the program.
                  8-At some point, end users receive translations in antiX updates.
                  9-It doesn’t matter if the translation is correct or not, if it’s excellent or not, it’s simply what we have for the moment. If the translator can see his own translation being performed in the program, he will be able to correct and improve every detail that can be seen in the Transifex texts. Now the questions remain: Will the most recent Transifex texts be used in the next update of the program? Will the latest Transifex texts be used in antiX ISOs?
                  10-It doesn’t matter what is written in the original language, because anyone who doesn’t know how to read in another foreign language doesn’t understand what is written and what counts is what is written in their native language.

                  It is worth highlighting a little of my experience:
                  We translate the programs completely blindly. The program’s “.pot” file does not have any type of comment, therefore, Transifex does not display any comments to assist translators. Volunteer translators cannot see all the windows, nor can they see where all the sentences and words they are translating will be used in the program. We don’t know if the translated text will fit in the window or in the little space that was sized for the original language. We do not know the context in which each phrase or word will be used.
                  The consequences of these processes or procedures that have not evolved are: poor translations, end users receive programs with incomprehensible texts, even though they are in their own language. As a consequence, the image of antiX, MX and GNU/Linux are unfinished or unprofessional products. Considering that most end users don’t know that everything or almost everything in the GNU/Linux world is made because of the voluntary work of several people, what counts is what people can see in their language.

                  For now, the only process or procedure that strives in all possible ways and means to have the best possible translations, is the process or procedure that Robin carried out in the “acstv-antix-community-simple-tv-starter” programs, “antixscreenshot2”, “antix-desktop-files” (antiX 19 and 21 desktop files), “antix23-desktop-files” (antiX 23 Desktop Files), etc. Where even those who do not understand anything about antiX or the program being translated are able to understand what is the best way to translate or adapt to the language that will be translated.

                  Transferring the responsibility of trying to guess how to force all windows of a program to display to volunteer translators is not the solution. I won’t know how to do this and I’m sure the other volunteer translators won’t know how to do this either. A practical example occurs in “antixscreenshot.sh”, all sentences are translated, except for the error message sentences. Just when something goes wrong, we receive texts in English. The same happens with the “antix-wifi-switch” program, the window displays important texts about what to do, but everything is written in English. As the text was not allowed to be selected and copied, it becomes even more difficult for us to use an automatic translator on the internet to understand the error message. And there are even worse situations, where a window displays the message “Error” and there is nothing else written.

                  I suggest we use this topic so that each person can suggest how we can improve processes or procedures for the good of antiX, in order to make the best use of each person’s volunteer time.

                  – – – – –

                  PPC wrote:

                  I’m not really sure if this proposal will catch on, but I just wrote a very long message to Marcelo, about the fact that he keeps insisting that folks that create scripts and programs should also have the extra work of commenting (almost) every single string that is marked for localization, in order to make life easier for the translation team.

                  Em toda longa conversa existe um contexto, se a gente não contar o contexto, ninguém fica sabendo do que se trata. Eu acho que deve ser assim em qualquer idioma.
                  No dia 21 de março de 2024, o PPC criou o tópico “Updated Runit Service Manager pt_PT localization“, sobre as traduções das palavras “Up”, “Down” e “Startup”, em idioma “pt” e em “pt_BR” que estavam mal traduzidas devido o contexto onde são utilizados não serem adequados ao que o programa realmente quer dizer.
                  Pois bem, eu imediatamente corrigi no Transifex as três palavras, conforme a compreensão e indicação do PPC, paralelamente fui comparar a tradução automática dos idiomas “fr_BE”, “it” e “de” (porque são os idiomas onde temos pessoas ativas e participativas neste fórum e que trabalham muito pelo bem do antiX). Dos 5 idiomas analisados (dois pelo PPC, o “pt” e o “pt_BR”, e três por mim, o “fr_BE”, o “it” e o “de”), 4 idiomas estão com traduções erradas.
                  A minha resposta para as traduções erradas é bem simples, os tradutores voluntários foram “enganados” ou “induzidos” ao erro por não haver qualquer tipo de comentário do programador.
                  Eu destaco que o programa “runit-service-manager” foi traduzido no dia 03 de setembro de 2021, então significa que está traduzido errado há mais de 2 anos e meio e só será corrigido quando o pacote for atualizado. Mas antes será preciso coletar as traduções mais recentes do Transifex, enviar as traduções mais recentes para o GitLab do antiX, empacotar novamente o programa “runit-service-manager” e disponibilizá-lo nas atualizações.
                  O que ocorre é que os processos ou procedimentos do antiX são os mesmos que eu encontrei em agosto de 2020 e estes processos ou procedimentos não evoluíram desde que comecei a compreender como tudo é feito no antiX e no MX.
                  Eu já apresentei várias sugestões no fórum de como imagino que os processos ou procedimentos poderiam ser para se tornarem melhores e com menos retrabalho.
                  Eu não sei onde estão os tópicos que eu apresentei as minhas sugestões, então eu tentarei descrever os processos ou procedimentos como são atualmente. Corrijam-me se eu estiver errado.

                  1-Todas as pessoas envolvidas são voluntários.
                  2-O programa é criado em idioma Inglês por um programador voluntário. (Deveria ser no seu idioma natal.)
                  3-O programa é empacotado por um voluntário e é distribuído nas atualizações ou fica disponível nos repositórios em idioma Inglês. (Ou seja, sem qualquer tipo de traduções e o resto do mundo que se vire para utilizar o programa sem qualquer tipo de tradução.)
                  4-Alguém reclama que o respectivo programa não está traduzido. (A área “Translations” tem vários tópicos deste tipo.)
                  5-O arquivo “.pot” é criado a partir da versão mais recente do programa “.sh, .bin, etc.”.
                  6-O arquivo “.pot” é enviado para o Transifex.
                  7-Várias pessoas doam o seu tempo e trabalho voluntário para traduzir o programa.
                  8-Em algum momento os usuários finais recebem as traduções nas atualizações do antiX.
                  9-Não importa se a tradução está correta ou não, se ficou excelente ou não, simplesmente é o que temos para o momento. Se o tradutor puder ver a sua própria tradução sendo executada no programa, poderá corrigir e melhorar cada detalhe que puder ser visto nos textos do Transifex. Agora ficam as perguntas: Será que os textos mais recentes do Transifex serão utilizados na próxima atualização do programa? Será que os textos mais recentes do Transifex serão utilizados nas ISOs do antiX?
                  10-Não importa o que está escrito no idioma original, porque quem não sabe ler em um outro idioma estrangeiro, não compreende o que está escrito e o que vale é o que está escrito em seu idioma natal.

                  Cabe salientar um pouco da minha experiência:
                  Traduzimos os programas totalmente às cegas. O arquivo “.pot” do programa não possui qualquer tipo de comentário, por tanto, o Transifex não exibe nenhum comentário para auxiliar os tradutores. Os tradutores voluntários não podem ver todas as janelas, bem como, não podem ver onde todas as frases e todas as palavras que estão traduzindo serão utilizadas no programa. Não sabemos se o texto traduzido irá caber na janela ou no pouco espaço que foi dimensionado para o idioma original. Não sabemos o contexto onde cada frase ou palavra será utilizada.
                  As consequências destes processos ou procedimentos que não evoluíram são: traduções mal feitas, os usuários finais recebem programas com textos incompreensíveis, mesmo estando em seu próprio idioma. Como consequência, a imagem do antiX, MX e dos GNU/Linux são de produtos inacabados ou que não são profissionais. Considerando que a maioria dos usuários finais não sabem que tudo ou quase tudo no mundo GNU/Linux é feito por causa do trabalho voluntário de várias pessoas, o que vale é o que as pessoas podem ver em seu idioma.

                  Por enquanto, o único processo ou procedimento que se esforça de todas as formas e meios possíveis para termos as melhores traduções possíveis, é o processo ou procedimento que o Robin realizou nos programas “acstv-antix-community-simple-tv-starter”, “antixscreenshot2”, “antix-desktop-files” (antiX 19 and 21 desktop files), “antix23-desktop-files” (antiX 23 Desktop Files), etc. Onde até quem não compreende nada do antiX ou do programa que está sendo traduzido é capaz compreender qual é a melhor forma de traduzir ou de adaptar para o idioma que será traduzido.

                  Transferir para os tradutores voluntários o dever de tentar adivinhar como forçar a exibição de todas as janelas de um programa não é a solução. Eu não saberei fazer isso e tenho certeza que os outros tradutores voluntários também não saberão como fazer isso. Um exemplo prático ocorre no “antixscreenshot.sh”, todas as frases estão traduzidas, exceto as frases das mensagens de erro. Justamente quando alguma coisa ocorre errado, recebemos os textos em idioma Inglês. O mesmo acontece com o programa “antix-wifi-switch”, a janela exibe textos importantes do que fazer, mas está tudo em escrito em idioma Inglês. Como não foi permitido que o texto possa ser selecionado e copiado, fica ainda mais difícil para utilizarmos um tradutor automático da internet para conseguirmos compreender a mensagem de erro. E tem as situações ainda pior, onde uma janela exibe a mensagem “Erro” e não tem mais nada escrito.

                  Eu sugiro utilizarmos este tópico para que cada pessoa possa sugerir como podemos melhorar os processos ou procedimentos para o bem do antiX, afim de aproveitarmos o tempo do trabalho voluntário de cada pessoa da melhor forma possível.

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