Proposal for antiX 21

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  • This topic has 51 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated Oct 11-11:06 pm by marcelocripe.
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  • #67755
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    PPC
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    Please stop talking about blacklisting.

    Off topic, but motivated by that post:
    I don’t want to sound politically incorrect or insensitive- I’m not a native English speaker, but I’m aware that there are words that refer to colours without any racial connotations: “whitelist” (and “blacklist”), “blackmail”, “whitewash”, etc, etc…
    In portuguese, the equivalent expression to “black list”- “lista negra” has, to the best of my knowlege, no racial connotations whatsoever… Why would it have those connotations in English?

    One may argue that there are some “sensitive” words used in computing: like “master” and “slave”… Those words have been in use for decades, and the politically correct movement is changing that… In that particular case, I may even agree that it makes sense- but not for racial reasons: White people enslaved other White people for millennia, Black people enslaved Black people for millennia too… and yes, White people enslaved Black people for centuries, in the recent past- that’s an unfortunate side of our History- but I’ve not yet noticed any racially charged words either in the forum or in antiX… I may be wrong…

    My point – we are triggered by several things: for example: why is it politically correct to tell jokes about blond women, but it’s politically incorrect to tell jokes about other minorities (where I’m from, blonds are minorities too)

    So, if we go down the hole of political correctness, we’ll probably get way over out heads- but this is only my personal opinion- I have a thick skin, most of the time…
    P.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 2 days ago by PPC.
    #67758
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    Brian Masinick
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    I do believe that our discussions should be “civil”, usually friendly, and not “target” or deliberately take offense to any group of persons.

    To the best of my knowledge we have not been inappropriate, nor do I think we should ever do so.
    Some of the terms used could possibly be “offensive” to some cultures, but the words mentioned are commonly used in technical writing. I may be very naive, but I’ve not seen this mentioned as an issue in the past. It doesn’t hurt to be “careful” and sensitive. On the other hand, as long as there has not been a reported problem a “reasonable amount” of caution does make sense. I don’t object to the recommendation to be careful in our use of words and apologize (and edit our communication) if we inadvertently offend others.

    Brian Masinick

    #67774
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    skidoo
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    .

    okeydoke

    We need to find another term.

    Instead of provoking a series of essays regarding this detail, Wallon’s posted might have more simply stated:

    suggested change:
    ” The command line option –ignoredlist allows to start the… “

    #67779
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    skidoo
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    #67783
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    olsztyn
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    Please stop talking about blacklisting. It is very offensive to the African people.

    For a simple solution to such demands I am OK if we just swap the meaning of Blacklist and Whitelist. Therefore Whitelist would mean rejects or non-compliant or whatever other negative connotation intended…
    This solution should be satisfactory to demands, although monetary reparations for historical use of the questioned terminology would be still outstanding…

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by olsztyn.
    #67784
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    manyroads
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    To quote from Billy’s minor literary success “Hamlet”: “The lady doth protest too much, methinks”

    Pax vobiscum,
    Mark Rabideau - http://many-roads.com
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
    dwm & i3wm ~Reg. Linux User #449130
    20 Jan 2021 ~ "End of an Error"

    #67789
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    anticapitalista
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    I’m with Wallon on this.

    IMO we do need to be careful of our use of words in order not to offend. This does not mean (and from what I understand Wallon did not imply in their post) that anyone using such terms (in this case the word blacklist’) is being consciously or sub-consciously racist/prejudiced.
    No-one is saying that.
    There are alternatives that we can use to the term since the text proposed by Robin is totally under our control as is the language we use in it.
    Quite simple really.

    Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

    antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

    #67847
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    Robin
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    Hello everybody,

    I’d never thought that somebody could liaise something like a »blackboard«, »blackbird«, »blacksmith« or »blacklist« in any way with people of colour. Looks like a quite far fetched idea I believe. Do we have to stop the use of the word »black« completely now for reasons of political correctness? But you are right, if somebody feels offended by this we’ll replace it, no question. As anticapitalista said, we have full control about which wording we are going to use on behalf of politeness. So please let me know the correct English substitution which I should better use for this expression, since I do know only this single adequate technical term I have used (I’m not a native speaker in English, in my tongue I’d have easily some fine replacements at hand immediately).
    Sure, I have some ideas for an alternative, but I really can’t tell which one doesn’t sound strange in native speakers ears:

    expulsorylist
    eliminationlist
    excludelist
    excludinglist
    excusionlist
    roule-out-list
    precludelist
    precludinglist
    obviationlist
    banlist
    exceptionlist
    exemptionlist
    isolationlist
    non-use-list
    ignoredlist (by skidoo)
    ignorelist

    Which expression is commonly used by native speakers instead of »blacklist«? I don’t want to choose something ridiculous…

    Meanwhile the script itself is translated to about 110 languages, most of them are machine translations. Many thanks to the translators who made their translations manually! These are way more accurate. All the compiled .mo files for use are on gitlab meanwhile, so you can check out the language switching button.

    Not all of the languages were added to antix contribs at transifex by now, so the question is: should I add them, so people will find everything prepared to start straightaway when they follow the link (this would be my preference), or should we wait for them to ask for their language to be added one by one (which will probably induce a discouraging effect)? I think: Don’t lay stumbling blocks in peoples path if you can easily avoid it. And to us it doesn’t make any difference whether these additional languages are present already on the project site at transifex or not.

    Btw, the dialog window looks quite pretty in some of the foreign languages, even if I can’t read a word of it.

    So long
    Robin

    #67853
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    marcelocripe
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    Not all of the languages were added to antix contribs at transifex by now, so the question is: should I add them, so people will find everything prepared to start straightaway when they follow the link (this would be my preference), or should we wait for them to ask for their language to be added one by one (which will probably induce a discouraging effect)? I think: Don’t lay stumbling blocks in peoples path if you can easily avoid it. And to us it doesn’t make any difference whether these additional languages are present already on the project site at transifex or not.

    I think the idea of inserting machine translations is the best way, I believe it is necessary to include a text in parentheses stating that the text is an automatic translation of the internet translators.

    – – – – –

    Eu acho que a ideia de inserir as traduções automáticas seja o melhor caminho, acredito que seja preciso incluir um texto entre parenteses informando que o texto é uma tradução automática dos tradutores da internet.

    #67857
    Forum Admin
    anticapitalista
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    @Robin – firstly, many thanks for your work on this. Secondly, many thanks for considering changing the term blacklist.
    There are alternatives as you list.

    Here are my suggestions:

    allow/deny
    welcome/blocklist
    green/red

    Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

    antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

    #67870
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    ModdIt
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    Not sure where the problem with blacklist comes from, almost certain from a non native english speaker
    who has never worked with dask skinned guys. In an international company repairing civil aircraft engines.
    I did for 17 plus years and we used the term, in manuals suppliers are blacklisted as are certain proceedures.
    In international technical context it is a listed stateful word.

    I worked with persons of many skin tones in the military, we had other problems than nitpicking.

    Simple words used in an express context can only be insulting to a persion who is looking for trouble..

    I heard fcking white Btard very often. I was called white which I find offensive IN the context it was used with.
    Whitelist or whitelisting on the other hand doesnt bother me at all.

    Although: When I am cold I am Blue, When I get Hot I am red, When I go in the sun for a while I get VERY Brown,
    When I got sick I was Yellow, even my eyes.

    I am a true coloured person.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks ago by ModdIt.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks ago by ModdIt.
    #67882
    Moderator
    Brian Masinick
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    Not sure where the problem with blacklist comes from, almost certain from a non native english speaker
    who has never worked with dask skinned guys. In an international company repairing civil aircraft engines.
    I did for 17 plus years and we used the term, in manuals suppliers are blacklisted as are certain proceedures.
    In international technical context it is a listed stateful word.

    I worked with persons of many skin tones in the military, we had other problems than nitpicking.

    Simple words used in an express context can only be insulting to a persion who is looking for trouble..

    I heard fcking white Btard very often. I was called white which I find offensive IN the context it was used with.
    Whitelist or whitelisting on the other hand doesn’t bother me at all.

    Although: When I am cold I am Blue, When I get Hot I am red, When I go in the sun for a while I get VERY Brown,
    When I got sick I was Yellow, even my eyes.

    I am a true coloured person.

    That’s true; a lot of what is said depends more on the context of the conversation; for example, is it a criticism or attack directed at a person – that can be offensive – or is it simply a technical discussion that has nothing to do with “name calling”.

    antiX had a couple of good suggestions, but as you comment, if people are going to take offense at everything, even using a color – which can be describing trees, beauty in nature – or it COULD be a personal attack – that all depends on the context of the comment and the conversation.

    I’m OK with whatever we decide but I personally think that just a FEW people are LOOKING for trouble, and that is the real source of the problem.

    Brian Masinick

    #67891
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    Wallon
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    Hello to all,

    I apologise if I have offended anyone.
    I did not mean to create a controversy and set the forum on fire.
    Why did I do that?
    In Belgium and in other countries in Europe, there are important debates about what words to use or not to use on the internet.
    I agree with the messages on this thread but things are changing and in our subconscious we don’t pay attention anymore.
    I just want to inform the community that there are codes of conduct that have been defined for advertising agencies on the internet or in large companies in the IT field.
    I have two examples of codes of conduct that will surprise you. I myself was very surprised because I wasn’t paying attention to my vocabulary.

    Please, I don’t want any more controversy on this thread. This subject is really too sensitive (touchy).
    The antiX community may or may not follow these codes of conduct.
    I remind you that this is just for information and that I am not forcing anything.

    Microsoft Style Guide;

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/style-guide/a-z-word-list-term-collections/b/blacklist

    
    blacklist
    01/15/2021
    2 minutes to read
    
    Never use blacklist. Use blocklist instead. For more specific usage, blocked senders list can be used.
    
    Examples
    Blocklists can help prevent unwanted spam. It could be useful to have a blocked senders list.
    

    GOOGLE developer documentation style guide

    https://developers.google.com/style/word-list#blacklist

    
    blacklist, black list, black-list
    Don't use blacklist, whitelist, and graylist. Instead, use more precise terms that are appropriate for your domain.
    For the noun blacklist, consider using a replacement such as denylist, excludelist, or blocklist.
    For the noun whitelist, consider using a replacement such as allowlist, trustlist, or safelist.
    For the noun graylist (greylist), consider using a replacement such as provisional list.
    In all of these cases, consider that there might not actually be a list involved. When replacing problematic terms, be sure to be technically accurate for the specific context.
    For the verb forms of these words, a simple word-for-word replacement is typically not the best solution. Instead, replace verbs such as blacklisted with phrases that accurately convey the relevant action. For example:
    Recommended: To deny requests from an IP address, add it to the dos.yaml file.
    Not recommended: To denylist an IP address, add it to the dos.yaml file.
    Don't use: To blacklist an IP address, add it to the dos.yaml file.
    If the command or code that you're documenting uses one of these words, then use these words only in direct reference to the code items (formatted as code), and make it clear what you're referring to.
    Recommended: Add a user to the allowlist (whitelist) by entering the following: whitelist adduser EMAIL_ADDRESS.
    Not recommended: Add a user to the whitelist by entering the following: whitelist adduser EMAIL_ADDRESS.
    

    Thank you all for reading this information.
    I sincerely wish all the best to the antiX community.

    Wallon.

    #67894
    Moderator
    Brian Masinick
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    @Wallon: I like your latest update and I am more than willing to go along with the suggestions in your latest post. Just like you, I do not intend to be offensive. Your latest comments offer many useful, constructive alternatives to words that may not be meaningful when translated into other languages. In any case, the suggestions made are positive, constructive, and helpful.

    Thank you for your gentle persistence in this manner; I think you have handled it well. It’s a positive suggestion and I hope that many people will adopt your newest suggestions; I applaud both your persistence and your sensitivity in this matter.

    Summary of positive words, particularly for lists that control access:

    Blocklist
    Safelist
    Provisional list

    Brian Masinick

    #67907
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    marcelocripe
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    Dear Waloon,

    I apologise if I have offended anyone.

    You didn’t offend anyone.

    I did not mean to create a controversy and set the forum on fire.

    You didn’t create controversy, on the contrary, you warned about the issues that are evolving, including how the same term can be had without the need to mention color. And as always, you are very polite with words and always share knowledge with everyone on this forum.
    In this proposal from Robin, we deal with communication, so the words and how they are used are extremely important. This reminds me that my words that you normally read are actually from the words or phrases of machine translations and that’s why they always need to be pondered, because I’m not the one who wrote them in English, it was a computer program that sometimes changes the original sense of what I actually wrote.

    My Thanks.

    marcelocripe

    – – – – –

    Caro Waloon,

    I apologise if I have offended anyone.

    Você não ofendeu ninguém.

    I did not mean to create a controversy and set the forum on fire.

    Você não criou polêmica, ao contrário, alertou sobre as questões que estão evoluindo, inclusive como pode ser tido um mesmo termo sem ter a necessidade de mencionar cor. E como sempre, você é muito polido com as palavras e sempre compartilha conhecimento com todas as pessoas neste fórum.
    Nesta proposta do Robin, nós tratamos sobre comunicação, por tanto as palavras e como são utilizadas são de extrema importância. Isso me faz lembrar que as minhas palavras que normalmente vocês leem na verdade são das palavras ou frases das traduções automáticas e por isso precisam sempre serem ponderas, pois não sou eu que as escrevi em idioma inglês, foi um programa de computador que as vezes altera o sentido original do que eu realmente escrevi.

    Meus agradecimentos.

    marcelocripe

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