- This topic has 9 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated Oct 31-2:57 pm by Brian Masinick.
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Posts
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Anonymous
Hello everybody. I’d like to suggest some “spring cleanup” for Antix 17.2.1 release.
Live CD/DVD/USB is a “take it or leave it” for any first time user!Menu:
1. Applications/Accessories
Remove from basic installation altogether:
Midnight Commander editor –> serves no purpose beside 2 other Editors.
Searchmonkey –> we already have SpaceFM and one other search.Duplicates to be removed by default:
Conky Toggle
Other Desktops
Rox Panel Toggle2. Applications/Internet
Wicd Network Manager –> missing even when activated on boot screen.
3. Applications/System Tools
Remove from basic installation altogether:
Midnight Commander –> serves no purpose beside 2 other File Managers.
Nvidia driver installer –> evtl. put it under Additional Software installer?Duplicate to be removed by default:
Update Menu –> it’s already in the main menu.4. Desktop issue with Rox Panel (position of Conky to high per default if Rox Panel is activated):
See screenshot: https://ibb.co/ioKBDA
5. Other issues:
1. Is there no simpler way of connecting with SMB shares or light app that could be used in place of “Connect Shares”?
2. Maybe make Pulseaudio optional install –> evtl. over some kind of Script install?
3. Integrate some sort of “Icon set changer”?
4. Fix error on first start.The very first thing a new user sees is an error upon desktop start. https://ibb.co/kmYMDA
That’s not really a “happy showing start” for a first time user!One of the first things a new user will do is to open a file manager. https://ibb.co/cae3tA
That’s not WYSIWYG. Installed OS will look little bit different. https://ibb.co/dHNTRVWicd is a tool that most people would appreciate but it’s nowhere to find anymore, even if activated during boot (F4).
It shouldn’t be missing! The second thing most people would do is to connect WiFi.
(File Manager first to copy & paste the PW.)“Searchmonkey” might be a good finder or not but, show the system to somebody who’s not 14 year old and he/she won’t be pleased.
If that tool is really necessity beside two other tools, then it should be renamed at least.
Imagine some aged person or some Dr. using “Monkeysearch”.Midnight Commander was a great tool and it should rest in peace. Everything has it’s time.
It looks too outdated, even with iceWM.nVidia drivers in the menu are not needed. One should move them in software installer.
Most of the people are installing Antix on computers that were junk some 10 ~ 15 years ago (and must must be happy if any GUI shows up) and a couple of others installing Antix on a brand new machines, know why they’re exactly takeing Antix and not Fedora or Ubuntu … Gnome3 and they’ll have no issues to install it from Software Centre. Antix has no menu search and so, the less in menu – the better. Makes it easier to find what one really needs. That’s also the reason for the “Menu cleanup” – removing the duplicates out of the menus. I know that one could easily hide the duplicates over the Menu Editor but, it would be even better if developers would hide the unnecessary and those who want to have everything double or triple, would still have the possibility to activate it.
“Icon changer” … Yes, I’m aware that Antix is a bit … well … antique and that Rox and SpaceFM are managing the icon sets but, what about the menu icons? If one edits the menu manually and presses the “Update Menu” or after the OS updates, then everything is gone back to default settings. Is there really no way to change those fixed paths with some variables which would call the icon name? Something like ${/ICONSET/firefox}, instead of /usr/share/icons…firefox.png?
I’ll write a separate post on “Connect Shares”. I need some help on that one. I connected many shares but “Connect Shares” never connected to anything. 🙂
Pulseaudio doesn’t need a comment. It’s unloved child even if sometimes necessary.
Antix is already great but, try to make it even better!
So … please don’t take me wrong. English is not my mother tongue and if I didn’t properly express myself and got misunderstood, I didn’t mean anything bad. The point is: Even a good product like Antix can be further improved. What I’m bringing up here is not solely my opinion but, it’s also based on reactions of the people to whom I showed or installed Antix. Please don’t understand it as “trolling”.
At the end: @anticapitalista & Co. — great work you did and many thanks!
Consider:
“duplicate” applications (to your example of Midnight Commander) are present because some people still prefer to use it, instead of or alongside the other similar apps. It’s tiny, and you can easily remove it from your system.
“duplicate” menu items, identical to control center buttons
If you research the older antiX versions (ISOs for older versions are available from some archive?) or read the betatesters feedback during antiX15, 16, 17… you’ll learn that it has gone back and forth (decision to include duplicates or not). Because many people were not finding control center, or were finding control center but getting lost in the maze of tabs and available tools, and posting and repeatedly reposting to ask “how do I xyz?” the redundant menu items were reintroduced into the menu for antiX17. Anyhow, that’s my understanding for the reason duplicates menu items are present.Searchmonkey inclusion isn’t concerned with impressing “Doctors”. It is a user-requested tool, it is effective, and is TINY compared to similar apps found in other distros, so it fits well the “lean and mean” antiX ethos.
Across distros the pulseaudio situation is weird, and I don’t fully understand the ins and outs. I guess we can use “apulse” as a replacement but it doesn’t work with all apps? On some other distros I have to go in and “turn up volume, to 120%” before I can hear anything. When I boot antiX, the sound “just works, without fiddling” so I’m content with whatever its set to in antiX17.
Well … I can live with your explanation but somehow, my logic can’t follow “users” logic.
Because many people were not finding control center, or were finding control center but getting lost in the maze of tabs and available tools, and posting and repeatedly reposting to ask “how do I xyz?” the redundant menu items were reintroduced into the menu for antiX17.
I’m a user. Either I right click on Start Menu or I left click on Desktop. The first thing that I see is “Update Menu” on the first level of the main menu. So, why exactly I should proceed to submenu Applications and sub-submenu System Tools, where the “Update Menu” is duplicated on the third level?
The same thing applies to Applications/Accessories for Conky Toggle, Other Desktops and Rox Panel Toggle. Since I want to change something on my Desktop and upon first left or right click I already have the category Desktop on the first level – which contains everything related to my desktop – why I should continue to third level to find the duplicates under ACCESSORIES??? If at all it has to be duplicated, then it should have been placed under the Setting since I would expect to change the setting for my desktop and not to change the accessory named Conky, Rox or Other Desktop. Setting a font dpi is also under Settings and not under Accessories.
Following that logic “Because many people were not finding…”, one could put the Screenshot Toll not only under Graphics but also under Accessories (where it actually belongs) and also under Office and Internet (since the most users probably use the Internet and Office more often then Graphics).
You can’t help the sort of user “… posting and repeatedly reposting to ask “how do I xyz?”. If they spent just a fractal of time reading the menu entries needed for asking how in a forum, they would have found it. 😉
Maybe I’m seeing it wrong but, replicating the thing to third level of menu and then even in a wrong category just doesn’t make much sense but definitely unnecessarily clutters the menus.
However, as the title said, it was just a suggestion/proposal, not a demand.
anticapitalista
Some users choose a different wm or even desktop manager to those shipped with antiX eg openbox, blackbox, xfce, mate so they do not get to see the main/root menu as we have set it up (customised). They will only see the Update Menu (and other examples you refer to) under Applications.
As mentioned above by 736b69646f6f, there have been many discussions about this issue of cleaning up the menu among the devs and also feedback from our users and we all disagree! One argument is that we should rearrange/add/remove entries to our root/menu. Another is to do as you suggest. Another dev argues to leave it all as it is since we don’t want to hide what we include, if we hide them, the logic goes, why bother including such apps?
We do listen to our users. It’s simply the case that each of us sees it differently. I’m sure we can make some improvements eg putting screenshot under Utility. Thanks for your suggestions.
Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.
antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.
fatmac
Wow! Get rid of the best file manager, come editor, come network browser – surely not! 🙂
I have always used Midnight Commander (mc), ever since I understood how powerful it is.
It isn’t just a file manager – it’s an admins work station. 😉You can use the same program in the GUI or at the command line.
As for having so many programs that you don’t want, have you tried the base or core versions?
Don’t forget, you can remaster it, & distribute that to your friends to install on their machines.
You then get to decide what they get. 🙂Linux (& BSD) since 1999
First of all, thanks for the replies. I can live with anticapitalistas reasoning.
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@fatmac:
You are completely missing the point of this topic and getting personal. So I’ll give you the answers …
Wow! Get rid of the best file manager, come editor, come network browser – surely not!
1. Did somebody ask what is best by YOUR opinion?
2. Did anybody discuss the best after all?
3. * “Best” vs. “Order” topic???You might notice the difference between “Get rid of the best… — surely not!” and a proposal to make it look more professional (== clean).
The point in case was “Get rid of the DUPLICATES”, no matter if they are the “best” or “worst”.
One could also get rid of Rox and SpaceFM and keep only “the best”. It would also serve the purpose of making more order. 😉
One application for one purpose — lean and clean. Whoever needs more or “better” can install whatever she/he finds to be “the best”.
* Definition of “best” vs. Definition of “order”
I have always used Midnight Commander (mc), ever since I understood how powerful it is.
Did I ask you what are you using and what for? Did or do I complain that Meld doesn’t come preinstalled even if I use it every day?
Did I suggested something “your way”: “Get rid of Firefox and make Chromium a default web browser — I use it everyday since I discovered that it can do certain things, which I need, better then Firefox — it’s a must have!”?
You can use the same program in the GUI or at the command line.
Just about how many “normal users” write shell scripts and can’t stop dreaming of Vi and Linux on cmd?
There is a good reason why the world is Windows, Mac & evtl. some Ubuntu.
People invented GUI not to use the cmd (does not mean “can’t”!!!).Before you give me advice now, on what I should use and why — don’t!
First, I have both of them too. Second, I am not asking for your opinion on what I should use when, how or why!
It isn’t just a file manager – it’s an admins work station.
What exactly one “admins work station” has to do with better organized (== more logical, no dups…) menus? Admin is at risk to find something quicker?
Work station for you might be useless for somebody else and the other way. (But anyway, that was not the point.)
As for having so many programs that you don’t want, have you tried the base or core versions?
Yup! (But that was not the point.)
P.S. Do you understand two (2) as “so many” or you just simply mixed up “programs that you don’t want” with “make more order in menus”?
… you can remaster it, & distribute that to your friends to install on their machines.
Yup! (But that was not the point.)
You then get to decide what they get.
Wrong! THEY decide that common sense is “common sense” and not a “personal sense” and they decide what they get (== some order).
(But that was not the point.)I hope you can understand the differences between my intentions and your interpretation of it.
Before posting my message yesterday, I removed the thinking-out-loud first sentence from it. That sentence was “Can you really speak to ‘what most users would do’ or ‘what most users want’? ”
Yeah, removed that because concerned it might sound “personal” or antagonisitc. Every time an enthusiastic new user drops in with ideas for this distro, or any other distro, or same patterns seen in the user forums for specific open source projects, it’s kind of a predictable pattern. Newb brings fresh insight, but might not and often does not consider the history and culture of the project, which instigates some friction. Sometimes a party will type out and explanation and history and describe “how and why we arrived here, how things evolved into what you see in the current release”, sometimes not. When it seems like newb is uncaring toward the existing and the history, suggestions sadly come across as “bossy” or sounds like just wants to put a thumbprint on the project, have some sway, be the tail waggin the dog.
Thanks, missTell, you reported some bugs. Really I’m confident your intentions are good. Same too, I’m confident fatmac’s intentions are good.
Me? I could search for my first post, but I was like “hey, you guys should add programwhatever. It’s really great!” and the reply was “Huh? It’s already preinsstalled.”
BobC
I realize that not everyone will like every program that I like, but Midnight Commander and its editor are great tools and don’t require a large amount of space or memory, and will save your bacon when you find yourself without X windows.
I will grudgingly install it like I do on any other distro that doesn’t include it by default, and will add that to my AntiX wish list if it is removed.
I don’t use WiCd because it takes so much memory compared to Ceni and WPA_Gui in Roaming mode, but again, there are people for which WiCd is easier, so probably best to leave it.
I don’t use Searchmonkey or SpaceFm to search, I use MC for that. It does the job.
I understand that you may not want or like my opinion, but you are asking for programs to be removed that others might like, and if the developers think nobody else cares, they might remove them.
I have supported AntiX with a small donation every year the past 3 years, have you?
You’re right about me being a Newb to AntiX. Earlier I used to put “my own Distro” together for myself but got a bit tired of it. You are also right that I am not considering the history and culture of the project but, that might be advantage too since that way, one can see the things through “different eyes”, something that somebody else doesn’t even notice.
Can you really speak to ‘what most users would do’ or ‘what most users want’?
I can’t and … still somehow — I can.
You see, I’m using a computer since 1981, I saw many concepts come and go and I worked in couple of different companies including schools. I helped to and I talked to people from 7 – 77, school kids, teenagers, adults of all ages, an-alphabets and academics … including visually dispaired people and I was reading a lot about UI/UX too.
You can discuss the taste and design but you can’t discuss usability. It’s very clearly defined. There is only one better. The rest is a personal preference.
If you have to go to Activities in the corner of your screen first and then you have to open the applications menu second, then go to all Aplications and then go to the third page to click on some icon and start your program, it takes longer and has more clicks then right click on desktop, submenu, app starter or just clicking on the icon on your task bar. I’m definitely right if I say it’s a terrible UI if it has longer way and more clicks to do the same thing. Like it or not. It doesn’t even stand for discussion. If you still prefer it, that’s your “freedom of choice”. You can take it and enjoy it — i’ll not try to stop you.
Pseudo-touch “gnomy” UI? You might like it but I’m right if I say its slower to use. Gnome3 is pretty and clean but it also needs at least one more click for anything you do.
As long as we still use the mouse and the keyboard.Better font contrast? You might have a perfect eyesight and have another taste but, I’m right if I say that usability is better when the font contrast is higher and the fonts clear.
Duplicates in menus? You might enjoy everything double and triple because it works fine for you but, I’m right if I say that you’ll find something quicker in a shorter menu.
An PDF writer … would you put it under Accessories, Graphics, Office or under all three? The most people I know, would FIRST look for it under Office category.
By their nature, all people are lazy and they usually prefer the known things to unknown, they don’t like to change to something different just for the sake of it, they ty to their thing with minimum possible effort and people get used to a certain way of doing/using the things too, they have some expectations on the products they use an so on.
There are many books and many studies which were questioning many thousands of people to find out if a color or a placement of a button is better one way or the other …
There are many different authors to the topic too but, I’ll give you just a couple of links to some Dedoimedo articles. It gives you the basic idea.The future is old
The Carrot & The Font Letter
Dev nonsense: netstat and ifconfig
Open Linux – Beyond distributions, regressions and rivalry
Linux 2017 – The Road to Hell
Modern software development is cancerThat’s basically why I allow myself to give a proposal to make a product better. I’m not demanding that one listens and implements it. I don’t even care because of myself personally – I’ll simply change it for myself but, the fact that I’m even mentioning it at all, shows that I have a respect for one great product and would like if it would get even better.
EVERY product you EVER saw in your life, be it a house, a car, an airplane … EVERY SINGLE ONE THING YOU EVER SAW could be further improved!
Brian Masinick
Some users choose a different wm or even desktop manager to those shipped with antiX eg openbox, blackbox, xfce, mate so they do not get to see the main/root menu as we have set it up (customised). They will only see the Update Menu (and other examples you refer to) under Applications.
As mentioned above by 736b69646f6f, there have been many discussions about this issue of cleaning up the menu among the devs and also feedback from our users and we all disagree! One argument is that we should rearrange/add/remove entries to our root/menu. Another is to do as you suggest. Another dev argues to leave it all as it is since we don’t want to hide what we include, if we hide them, the logic goes, why bother including such apps?
We do listen to our users. It’s simply the case that each of us sees it differently. I’m sure we can make some improvements eg putting screenshot under Utility. Thanks for your suggestions.
At the end of the day, what is chosen will take into account the comments and preferences of those who have written, and those responsible for the implementation will develop something that can be accomplished during development phase that is consistent with the overall plan for the release.
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Brian Masinick
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