'sid' and 'Testing' caveats

Forum Forums News Sid Upgraders 'sid' and 'Testing' caveats

This topic contains 12 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by masinick Nov 3-4:59 pm.

Viewing 13 posts - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)
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  • #8609
    Forum Admin
    anticapitalista
    anticapitalista

    Of course anyone can use antiX with whatever Debian/antiX repositories they want and we will do our best to support such users.
    (You are on your own though, if you start adding non-Debian repos such as Ubuntu ppas).

    However, do remember that Debian ‘sid’ and (at the moment) ‘Testing’ are moving targets. So, for example, upgrading today may not break anything, but tomorrow’s upgrade may.

    To make things even more ‘risky’ for ‘sid’ and ‘testing’ users is the fact that Debian regularly upgrades packages that bring in libsystemd0 (not a disaster) and/or systemd (disaster). By the time I am aware of this and have rebuilt the infected debs, there will be some delay.

    So, my advice is to always upgrade via the terminal when using ‘sid’ and use dist-upgrade rather than upgrade and always read what apt tells you. If it looks like some things are going to be removed, just abort.
    If you are not sure what to do or the output seems confusing, abort and ask here at the forums.

    I have been running Debian sid on my desktop for years. One partition started out as antiX-12 and is still going using the ‘sid’ repos and it is completely free of systemd.
    Using some common-sense, it is possible to run a systemd-free antiX sid install and enjoy it – have fun!

    BTW – It is not possible to install gnome desktop nor Budgie desktop since they both require systemd.

    • This topic was modified 7 months, 2 weeks ago by anticapitalista. Reason: added extra info

    Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

    #8612
    Forum Admin
    rokytnji
    rokytnji

    After systemd kicked in. I just decided to abandon testing, unstable,experimental.
    On all my AntiX installs. I tried BSD and found my limitations were vast.

    So. I just roll with stable and call it a day.

    Getting LXDE to work on my AntiX 8.5 testing core install was a project from hell that was underwhelming IMO. Ram usage was not as good as stock.
    I feel I accomplished enough this year getting AntiX 17 Stretch to run on my Acer C710 Chromebook.
    While everyone else was using MX on theirs, or Fedora.

    Good to know about Budgie and Gnome also.

    Beer, Bikes, and BBQ. It's what we do. Master of none.
    Linux Registered User # 475019
    How to Search for AntiX solutions to your problems

    #8647
    Member
    fungalnet
    fungalnet

    I don’t disagree with either of you, nor am I willing to dispute what you advise. The key to all this is what anticapitalista calls “common sense”. How common is this sense?
    When you hit update and it says you can upgrade 23 pkgs.
    You must then hit –upgradeable to get the list.
    Then you must hit search to see where they are coming from, for each of the 23, and if their dependencies are available or blocked.
    Then you hit dist-upgrade and it tells you “it is more complicated than that” so you say NO!
    Then you do more research. And still there is a chance you might have missed something, but ofcourse it is fixable no matter what happens.

    It is the nature of the beast.
    There is nothing broken in my sid but I wouldn’t dare ever ask for help again. No reason ever to reinstall.
    There might always be a reason of getting tired of fixing something and replace it with something else but reinstall is for windose users.

    Why not just admit that you are struggling with the “next to impossible” beast and leave that common sense out of the picture. The beast keeps spitting out traps while you have just fallen to sleep. That is common sense!

    #8650
    Forum Admin
    anticapitalista
    anticapitalista

    When you hit update and it says you can upgrade 23 pkgs.
    You must then hit –upgradeable to get the list.
    Then you must hit search to see where they are coming from, for each of the 23, and if their dependencies are available or blocked.
    Then you hit dist-upgrade and it tells you “it is more complicated than that” so you say NO!

    You do not need to do this, you simply do apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade and read the output.

    There is nothing broken in my sid …

    Your posts on the sid thread suggests otherwise.

    No reason ever to reinstall.

    I disagree. If YOU think you can fix your errors, fine by me.

    Why not just admit that you are struggling with the “next to impossible” beast and leave that common sense out of the picture. The beast keeps spitting out traps while you have just fallen to sleep. That is common sense!

    Err, isn’t that exactly what I say when I wrote above.

    To make things even more ‘risky’ for ‘sid’ and ‘testing’ users is the fact that Debian regularly upgrades packages that bring in libsystemd0 (not a disaster) and/or systemd (disaster). By the time I am aware of this and have rebuilt the infected debs, there will be some delay.

    Fungalnet, do what you like with your broken antiX sid, I really couldn’t care less anymore.

    To other sid users, just follow the steps in the first post and you should be ok.

    • This reply was modified 7 months, 2 weeks ago by anticapitalista.
    • This reply was modified 7 months, 2 weeks ago by anticapitalista.

    Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

    #8655
    Member
    sleekmason
    sleekmason

    How interesting!

    Posting a problem, getting correct suggestions, not doing those suggestions, posting more about the problems caused by not doing the listed solutions –. denying a problem exists while complaining about the problem, denying a solution exists while complaining about the solution! Wow!!

    fungalnet you come across as a troll out to cause havoc in a forum. Is that whats going on? just curious as to why you persist in arguing a point that couldn’t be more wrong, and several people have tried to help. Whats your game?

    #8662
    Member
    fungalnet
    fungalnet

    No this is total distortion of what happened and you know it and you are trolling trying to get a reaction.
    If you can’t read go back to grammar school.
    I first presented anticapitalista the problem of already have upgraded what was not yet to be upgraded, I accepted the responsibility for doing so, then came suggestions but by that time more improper pkgs had gotten out. and then there were more suggestions and a chain reaction. Twisting it all around trying to make a point of a good puppy to anticapitalista defending something that “nobody is really offending” and then anticapitalista not intervening to cut this crap is not really my fault.

    See above, it is a bomb ready to explode, that is what sid is, and possibly testing to a lower degree.

    My friendly suggestion? DO NOT publish an antix-sid and keep it for dev work. Just keep testing. If some want to use debian’s sid repository open and take a risk to get stuff from there let them do it.

    There is constructive criticism and there is trolling and criticism of trying to put something down. You folks can’t see through it, only see a gang, those who are friendly with the master and the outcasts. It is not like I dared criticized the party line and introduced revisionism in holy orthodoxy. I’ve done plenty to praise antiX and that remains for what it is.

    Common sense …..!!! I think you need to rewrite your OP because if the foundation is “common sense” the whole structure of your argument disintegrates in a non-argument, at least not a rational one. There is a time continuum you know, we can not all synchronize to the millisecond of what anticapitalista says to do. The second you hit return and say, ok, upgrade now, 200 new pkgs have appeared from debian. This does not ever work, what you propose. Try a better way!

    • This reply was modified 7 months, 2 weeks ago by fungalnet.
    #8665
    Member
    fungalnet
    fungalnet

    And my installation is fine, thank you.
    What tests of my installation would you want to see to prove to you that your “get off my back” advise to reinstall is just poor advise?

    I’d be happy to produce the output.
    Can I rely on this installation to do work? Not in my wildest dreams, this is just an experiment in futility.

    #8666
    Forum Admin
    anticapitalista
    anticapitalista

    No, YOU decided to install an app from experimental and that broke your install beyond repair. Nobody suggested installing anything from the experimental repos. Once we had found that out – you did not tell us – one suggestion by me was a re-install. You don’t want to do that – fine – it is your choice, and up to you to fix it – nobody else.

    Maybe you should follow this poster’s advice?

    Again, if it is not fixable it is not worth pursuing anymore. If and when I know I did something wrong and I know it can be fixed but it is just faster and easier to reinstall, I do that…

    end of story.

    Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

    #8712
    Forum Admin
    rokytnji
    rokytnji

    It is the nature of the beast.this is just an experiment in futility.

    Woke up in good mood this morning. Just having fun .

    Beer, Bikes, and BBQ. It's what we do. Master of none.
    Linux Registered User # 475019
    How to Search for AntiX solutions to your problems

    #8935
    Member

    DeepDayze

    No, YOU decided to install an app from experimental and that broke your install beyond repair. Nobody suggested installing anything from the experimental repos. Once we had found that out – you did not tell us – one suggestion by me was a re-install. You don’t want to do that – fine – it is your choice, and up to you to fix it – nobody else.

    Maybe you should follow this poster’s advice?

    Again, if it is not fixable it is not worth pursuing anymore. If and when I know I did something wrong and I know it can be fixed but it is just faster and easier to reinstall, I do that…

    end of story.

    To me systemd isn’t all that bad (it happens to be installed on my system) but if any of you don’t want it, just be careful and remember the caveats posted in the OP when upgrading AntiX to Sid. As for experimental packages, be very wary of installing anything from Experimental as yes it CAN break things (that’s why it’s called experimental for a reason 🙂 ). Another warning about experimental packages is NEVER attempt to install them directly to a stable base as they WILL break things (or you will be lucky it won’t install because of the unmet dependencies 😉 ).

    Try using AntiX in a VM and update that to Sid to see how it will work before you upgrade your current AntiX install to Sid. It can be fun to run Sid, but be careful of the pitfalls!

    • This reply was modified 7 months, 1 week ago by DeepDayze.

    Real men use Linux 🙂

    #9183
    Moderator
    masinick
    masinick

    I used to use Debian Sid a LOT – and even had multiple copies available, plenty of backups and alternatives available, so if I messed it up badly, I could reinstall, start over, or move on to something else.

    I can still do such things – and I was one of the early users of antiX Core with a Debian Sid based implementation; I used it for several years with zero issues.

    I’m NOT typical; most people WILL NOT want to do such things unless they really understand it well and, like me, have plenty of other alternatives and sources to recover.

    I’ve not had a lot of failures, but at least once, maybe twice, I rendered the Sid based system inoperable – I did that with the pure Debian Sid, but had better success with my antiX implementations. I recently got rid of the last of my 32-bit systems where I did most of those experiments. These days I don’t have anything to experiment with, so I stick to the tried and true, and I’m very happy with the antiX and MX implementations that I still use.

    Brian Masinick

    #10941
    Member
    TonyVanDam
    TonyVanDam

    At the time of typing [Sunday, 6/17/2018], antiX Sid is working great on my 2-year-old Asus desktop. As for my currently 4-year-old Acer laptop, I decided to “play it safe” by keeping antiX Stable.

    #13026
    Moderator
    masinick
    masinick

    So, my advice is to always upgrade via the terminal when using ‘sid’ and use dist-upgrade rather than upgrade and always read what apt tells you. If it looks like some things are going to be removed, just abort.

    Over the past few months, I have not been using an unstable distribution, but following anti’s advice (quoted above), I probably used Debian Sid or other Debian-based distributions with Sid enabled for *at least* 15 of the past 20 years (if not more than that). Never once did this advice fail to work.

    I probably BROKE Sid two or three times, but when I did, I was blatantly and deliberately ignoring this good advice, and intentionally combining packages from Stable, Testing, Unstable, and even foreign distributions, actually TRYING to find the breaking point. It took some pretty crazy stuff to break Sid, but frankly, had I not been doing changes in the wee hours of the night, ignoring error messages and doing otherwise diabolical deeds to the packaging, even those failures could have been avoided.

    It pays to listen to words of wisdom; guys like anti and others with years of either packaging or development experience know. Following good advice, even so-called “unstable” distributions can be used with consistent results for MANY years.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by masinick.

    Brian Masinick

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