Split: Differences in distros for our computer systems

Forum Forums General Other Distros Split: Differences in distros for our computer systems

  • This topic has 11 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated Feb 14-5:18 pm by Brian Masinick.
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  • #133050
    Member
    PPC

      in addition to a GNU/Linux distribution being light and fast, allowing old computers to be revived, the distribution needs to have a community willing to have new users.

      No. In reality, you are wrong on those statements. Linux distros do not have to be light and fast. Some users (many users in fact), prefer “flashier” OSes, with all kinds of visual effects and add-ons, that mimic the look and feel of Windows or MacOS, with systemd, snap support, flashpack support, etc, etc, without even considering that they are not much lighter than the latest version of Windows. Also Arch Linux, one of the most well known Linux Distro (and Manjaro, to some extent based in Arch) are notorious for not welcoming new “clueless” users or new opinions or contributions.

      The fact that we, antiX users, and we, on this Thread, are talking about “light distros, that run well on old computers”, does not mean all Linux users want that. You are confusing your “tree” (your opinion) with the “forest” (the opinion of the majority of Linux users, that use Ubuntu and their derivatives)…

      P.

      #133051
      Member
      madibi

        Linux distros do not have to be light and fast. Some users (many users in fact), prefer “flashier” OSes, with all kinds of visual effects and add-ons, that mimic the look and feel of Windows or MacOS, with systemd, snap support, flashpack support, etc, etc, without even considering that they are not much lighter than the latest version of Windows.

        hmmm.. may be
        In my experience the claim that I heard about linux has always been <<.. to revive that old computer..>>, so I understand the position of Marcelo. Otherwise, why to leave win 11 or MacOS?
        ———-

        Back to main topic.
        In my previous post I completely forgot “adelie linux”. That is really devoted to very old pc(s) and Mac(s). It is very light, but unfortunately for my needs is too much complicate.

        m

        • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by madibi.
        #133053
        Moderator
        Brian Masinick

          in addition to a GNU/Linux distribution being light and fast, allowing old computers to be revived, the distribution needs to have a community willing to have new users.

          No. In reality, you are wrong on those statements. Linux distros do not have to be light and fast. Some users (many users in fact), prefer “flashier” OSes, with all kinds of visual effects and add-ons, that mimic the look and feel of Windows or MacOS, with systemd, snap support, flashpack support, etc, etc, without even considering that they are not much lighter than the latest version of Windows. Also Arch Linux, one of the most well known Linux Distro (and Manjaro, to some extent based in Arch) are notorious for not welcoming new “clueless” users or new opinions or contributions.

          The fact that we, antiX users, and we, on this Thread, are talking about “light distros, that run well on old computers”, does not mean all Linux users want that. You are confusing your “tree” (your opinion) with the “forest” (the opinion of the majority of Linux users, that use Ubuntu and their derivatives).

          P.

          There is *truth* in both views, which means in the Linux community, there is ample opportunity to create considerable variation in the features of any particular system, which partially explains why there are, and have been since the early 1990s, many “distributions” come and go.

          One person wants a supercomputer implementation, another wants a desktop system, another wants a mobile implementation, a scientific system, and so on. The Debian project alone offers numerous projects and variations upon which communities build their work. Some of them remain Debian derivatives, but the possibilities are endless. Communities like ours use applications that are built with Debian-formatted .deb packages, but we diverge from the Debian (and many other) projects by reworking the libraries and the init system so that it doesn’t rely at all on systemd or any libraries it uses.

          Our init-diversity project is currently investigating FOUR distinct init system choices: sysVinit, runit, s6-rc and s6-66 and it’s going REALLY well, in spite of the fact that it’s a build and a concept developing project. How cool is that?

          The huge takeaway from all of this is that in spite of Mac, iMac, iOS, Windows, and Android (which at least uses a Linux kernel), there is a LOT more freedom and diversity available in any true all-Linux ecosystem and the varieties are endless. On my phone I like Android; it does offer me at least SOME individuality and diversity; I can pick my own appearance, choose which apps I install, and I can get a pre-configured commercial phone or I can get a Google manufactured phone; they have different set-ups and configurations, not as extensive as 100% Linux, but at least there’s not as much LOCK – I can move easily between a Lenovo phone, a Motorola phone, a Samsung phone or a Google phone and get at least a decent percentage of the same stuff; I can get my Email preferences brought in when I change phones, along with my Contacts, even if the “exchange” involves a few trade-offs. I have gone from getting the Droid series from Motorola to the Google Pixel series because I can keep most of the excess stuff OFF my phone; that’s at least a moderate example of choice. I can still go to the BSD-based iOS Apple phones; I just don’t want to because in spite of a theoretically “open” operating system, the Apple infrastructure favors carefully crafted consistency versus independence; I don’t care for it, but at least I have the choice between that and many other options.

          It wasn’t always this way. Once upon a time, your only choices were which hardware vendor to choose; now we can choose our favorite hardware AND software; it may be “complicated” for some, but it’s real freedom for others.

          Those who want off the shelf commercial solutions still have the freedom to go that way; I KNOW that VERY few of us here will WANT to do that; we only use commercial stuff if we have a JOB where that’s what is available; I can – and HAVE – lived with that, and it was fine; I always got paid when I worked. I even got to use Linux or UNIX in a few of those jobs; those were always the good ones as far as technology goes, but before I retired, I learned ANOTHER benefit that I see here in ABUNDANCE – the opportunity to communicate with and share with diverse people from all over the world; despite our different preferences, different cultures, and frequently our different native languages, we manage to communicate.

          My parents and grandparents had very few opportunities to share with as many diverse interests as I’ve had the privilege of enjoying, partly because of our multi-cultural economy these days, but I think that a LOT of that accelerated when we came up with networking technology and pursued multiple ways of doing many things, including when, where, and how we use information technology.

          --
          Brian Masinick

          #133054
          Moderator
          Brian Masinick

            This topic is or was originally about Other distros for old computers.

            We have talked a lot about that, but the larger topic is about using diverse
            capabilities of systems – some ONLY for old computers, others that might
            work on either old or new computers.

            If there is sufficient interest, and/or if anyone wants to CONTAIN
            this discussion to ONLY old computers, we can split off a topic
            emphasizing different methods for various computing functions.

            --
            Brian Masinick

            #133061
            Member
            marcelocripe

              This topic is or was originally about Other distros for old computers.

              We have talked a lot about that, but the larger topic is about using diverse
              capabilities of systems – some ONLY for old computers, others that might
              work on either old or new computers.

              If there is sufficient interest, and/or if anyone wants to CONTAIN
              this discussion to ONLY old computers, we can split off a topic
              emphasizing different methods for various computing functions.

              There is no need to separate into different topics.
              The context in which I wrote was related to the subject of the topic “Other distros for old computers?“.

              – – – – –

              This topic is or was originally about Other distros for old computers.

              We have talked a lot about that, but the larger topic is about using diverse
              capabilities of systems – some ONLY for old computers, others that might
              work on either old or new computers.

              If there is sufficient interest, and/or if anyone wants to CONTAIN
              this discussion to ONLY old computers, we can split off a topic
              emphasizing different methods for various computing functions.

              Não há necessidade de separar em tópicos diferentes.
              O contexto no qual eu escrevi estava relacionado ao assunto do tópico “Other distros for old computers?“.

              #133062
              Member
              PPC

                Well, I guess this “splited” topic can be used to talk about the different uses we expect from our Distros.
                In my particular case:
                – Web browsing for work and in my free time
                – office work (and writing for leisure)
                – watching video/tv/listening to radio
                – some occasional gaming (stuff like board games, but also some more hard core games, even some commercial ones I got for free)
                – writing scripts
                – reading news and fiction.

                I’m lucky that all official documents in Portugal are expected to me in .pdf form- and LibreOffice creates those just fine (and even allows to edit them a bit, and Firefox and some other tools allow to annotate them).
                I can do most of what I use computers even on my 32bits laptop, win antiX 22

                #133064
                Moderator
                Brian Masinick

                  Well, I guess this “splited” topic can be used to talk about the different uses we expect from our Distros.
                  In my particular case:
                  – Web browsing for work and in my free time
                  – office work (and writing for leisure)
                  – watching video/tv/listening to radio
                  – some occasional gaming (stuff like board games, but also some more hard core games, even some commercial ones I got for free)
                  – writing scripts
                  – reading news and fiction.

                  I’m lucky that all official documents in Portugal are expected to me in .pdf form- and LibreOffice creates those just fine (and even allows to edit them a bit, and Firefox and some other tools allow to annotate them).
                  I can do most of what I use computers even on my 32-bits laptop, win antiX 22

                  As a “retired geek”, I’m interested in trying different things, but my actual needs are rather
                  simple; a browser and a few basic tools are all I need for the most fundamental needs I have
                  today and that is why I prefer antiX; it has always been useful since the beginning.
                  Now it’s useful because I can use it quickly for the majority of things, I can try out tools,
                  such as the ones that @PPC has written, and I can also write a few of my own; I wrote a couple
                  of simple clock apps – were they “necessary”? Not at all, we have a clock right on our toolbar.
                  I just did it to keep a few fingers in the stuff I spent a career doing.

                  I was never a great programmer, but I did have a lot of ideas and I could come up with an
                  architecture, and others could build it; I might add a few small scripts around the edges
                  or a script-based test harness to test stuff repeatedly, but that’s about the extent of
                  my skills there.

                  I’m curious about stuff; not all that long ago I experimented with some Arch Linux
                  varieties; EndeavourOS was the only one *for me* that was the right combination of
                  features and the ability to get on board with it WITHOUT having to build practically
                  from scratch. I have no interest anymore in building anything large from scratch
                  at this point.

                  I learned enough about various package managers that I can run either the high level
                  or low level versions of several different methods, but now I use .deb for more than
                  75% of my systems, probably more like 90% except that I don’t have TEN or TWELVE distinct
                  distros any more, so 75% is the right percentage of what I actually have running.
                  .deb, .rpm, .tgz and Arch+ AUR are a few of the ones I’ve had sufficient experience
                  to install and maintain.

                  In the DISTANT past, I’ve actually started small UNIX systems from a bootstrap
                  loader, beginning at address 0200. That skill is long gone these days, other
                  than the memory of doing it in the past.

                  I like to try and use a LOT of Web browsers. Even on a modest system
                  it’s possible to bring in browsers whether in distro format packages or
                  compressed archive packages. I do stuff with Firefox in compressed archives;
                  I get Ungoogled Chromium in AppImage format. Librewolf and Ungoogled Chromium
                  are interesting because they both value privacy of information, but Librewolf
                  does theirs in a full-featured environment; Ungoogled Chromium provides a modern
                  browser that will render most common sites but will NOT store the conveniences
                  that help you automatically login to them, so in that respect, some may consider
                  it an even safer option, though you can cut down on what Librewolf “remembers”;
                  they are a good exercise to compare and contrast in their methods.

                  I enjoy diversity in many things – cultural diversity, ethnic diversity, and
                  as we’ve been recently doing, init-diversity. “Enjoying” does not always
                  mean that I practice all types of diversity, I simply appreciate the many ways
                  that human beings do things. I don’t want to BE or become someone else, I simply
                  enjoy observing and respecting things that different people do, particularly those
                  who are interested in their own and other practices.

                  So when you combine all of this together, it’s a merge of computer interests
                  with inter personal people interests; put it all together, and it’s as
                  beautiful as the colors of a fresh rainbow.

                  --
                  Brian Masinick

                  #133113
                  Member
                  Xunzi_23

                    PPC Wrote

                    Arch Linux, one of the most well known Linux Distro (and Manjaro, to some extent based in Arch) are notorious for not welcoming new “clueless” users or new opinions or contributions.

                    My personal experience with both Arch and Manjaro have been that a user who is willing to search before posting, follows suggestions and reports back, i.e. gives feedback
                    and does not leech or make false claims is accepted and welcome.

                    Regarding contributions Arch Manjaro users can draw on the AUR, Arch user repository. Applications in that are are not official but often latest and in most cases useful to very useful. If a contribution proves popular it can move in to official Arch through staging. A lot of the AUR contributions are not binarys but easily compiled and installed using an AUR helper.

                    What Arch and Manjaro, I would add Debian user forums do not tolerate is trash posting, truth bending manipulative persons are, if warnings are not taken, quickly and politely asked to leave or in case or repeats banned. My personal worst forum experience was long ago on Ubuntu, I now often visit that community, as buntu is based on a non stable Debian version and I mostly use a Sid based antiX setup occasional problems I run in to may have a fix already.

                    Posts of the style used in a recent long torturous and fanciful self glorification (When I studied IT, I am a professor, I manage an org which even google can not find) thread by a person repeatedly asking the obvious, seemingly making no effort to understand even basic commands, ignoring the hard work of others like PPC who have created an extensive and very useful guide for new users And on top calling developers and linux users in general idiots, incapable of even basic understanding!.

                    Will deservedly receive a strong reaction, up to and above the famous RTFM.

                    I compare antiX users to a global village, Those abusing the community are a real problem, they weaken the bonds and contribute little to nothing except time wasting.
                    Parts are to some extent human nature, but the community must react or go into a state of permanent crisis.

                    My personal personality defects are obvious, I see read and try and learn from the Xunci Chapter 23 and do my best, try to be a good villager and contribute to the growing community where I can, mostly locally, financially I donate to several community projects.

                    #133146
                    Moderator
                    Brian Masinick

                      @Xunzi_23 Thank you for your perspective on this. It is true that most of the time when some organization declines to offer help to someone it is because the individual has not taken the time or the effort to search for or learn anything; that much is almost certainly true. On the other hand, a non-technical, genuine beginner really may not realize or understand how to get started, whereas most of us here would simply open a search engine and find a wealth of information available within minutes.

                      I think what separates some of us here from those in depth forums is that a few of us will take the time to instruct a first time person how to find the information, and a few of us may even copy the information and further simplify it for the first time user.

                      I’ve been using computers since I was seventeen. Back then there were not too many documents, other that “official” system manuals, for doing things. Some tools had manual pages; there was minimal documentation available, but for the most part, looking at scripts and tools was the way to figure it out, and trial and error was the other way. A lot has changed and it has opened the door for almost anyone to use network devices. At first I was encouraged by this because it would enable the majority of people to gain access to a huge variety of information; now I am less certain; instead we’ve created a generation of people who have their heads down, looking at phones or screens of some sort instead of interacting with others.

                      I’m positive I will move away from this screen many times today, and this evening I doubt that I’ll use it at all. The lesson is that these systems can be useful and interesting, but they are far from the only worthwhile thing to use or look at, day and night; hope all of you find the right perspective; be helpful, spend time with people you can actually see and interact with; best wishes to all!

                      --
                      Brian Masinick

                      #133147
                      Forum Admin
                      rokytnji

                        Since I got antiX runit 23.1 full iso to run on this chromebook. With no problems.

                        Been spreading the word about it. From Distrowatch reviews to answering chromebook questions on Linux Questions org.

                        I used to be pretty clueless when joining forums. I have even outlived some site owners who are my online buddies.
                        Sorta glad I trimmed down my bookmarks selection.
                        Believe it or not. I think Murga and Linux Questions come close to how this village is run.
                        A lot of activity here lately. Kinda/Yes, leaving me in the dust. But I love to watch you guys like bikers doing riding tricks with your gear.
                        Kinda proud other developers are joining us and contributing their code.

                        As the Chinese curse says. “We are living in interesting times.”

                        Sometimes I drive a crooked road to get my mind straight.
                        I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute off it.
                        Motorcycle racing is rocket science.

                        Linux Registered User # 475019
                        How to Search for AntiX solutions to your problems

                        #133150
                        Member
                        PPC

                          I did something that I don’t usually do: I gratuity criticized another person’s work (in this case, Arch and Manjaro communities and Devs), and I’m sorry about that… My comments on other foruns and distros was generic and not based on my own experience!
                          That said, I saw a Linux you-tuber that complained about how his suggestions and patches to Manjaro problems where refused on the grounds that the Devs considered that the Distro had nothing wrong (and that you-tuber pointed out the exact problem and it’s proposed solution). That was what I meant by not welcoming “contributions” (I meant contributions to the OS itself, not to the forum).
                          I never posted on Arch foruns, but it’s a common joke among the Linux community that “RTFM” is a very common response over there. Usually, here we tend to point users, even those asking very very “newbie” questions, to the exact post or entry in the unofficial FAQs that helps answer their questions. It’s a kind of “RTFM” but a more useful one, that not only answers the question (indirectly), but also gives tools to help users find the answers to future “basic” questions. I compiled the unofficial FAQ’s and some related posts… It’s a 60+ pages “manual”. Just saying “here, go read this small bible, the answer you want is there” does not help much, right? People should read the manual, but very few people do that- me included. That was the reason that I did not really understand why antiX had so many “desktops” when I started using it, and why I try to provide a good explanation for it, that people can read and understand in under 5 minutes.

                          P.

                          #133163
                          Moderator
                          Brian Masinick

                            [As the Chinese curse says. “We are living in interesting times.”]

                            As the local Chinese establishment once said,
                            “How long that be? Ah, ’bout ten minutes’ – wait, no MSG,
                            take bit longer, ’bout fifteen minutes!”

                            One of my favorite Chinese friends, with whom I’d often eat
                            lunch, said to me one day: “You ready for M.I.T.?”
                            I asked him what is “M.I.T.” for today?”
                            “Ah, that easy! GOT to visit men’s room before going to lunch!” {grin}

                            I’ve been working with the init-diversity edition lately; there is a newer
                            version available, but the amd64 link to the latest edition is not “live”; it
                            is a dead link, though I already have the md5sum for the image ready to check.

                            Maybe I’ll go back to another edition for a little while as I’m “waiting”.

                            --
                            Brian Masinick

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