UNOFFICIAL antiX-23 “init-diversity” spin.

Forum Forums antiX-development Development UNOFFICIAL antiX-23 “init-diversity” spin.

  • This topic has 71 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated Mar 23-4:51 pm by Brian Masinick.
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  • #133293
    Forum Admin
    anticapitalista

      We offer you a development release of antiX-23-full edition (32 and 64 bit) shipping with 4 init systems out of the box and still systemd-free!

      *sysVinit
      *runit
      *s6
      *s6-66

      This ‘spin’ has been developed by ProwlerGR and is fully supported by the antiX team, even though it is in development stage.

      * Multiple grub (isolinux) entries available allow to boot live into any of the 4 available inits
      * The s6-rc Service Manager (inspired by the runit Service Manager), comes preinstalled making s6-rc management a breeze.
      * Service files have been optimised, providing a very strong foundation for any official work to come.

      Just a few notes to all that plan to try it:
      – Running it live works as expected for what it is intended.
      – If you plan to install, it is important to boot into the “default” boot entry prior to installing. The installer has unpredicted behaviour breaking a few things (reboot, poweroff) if you install using the non default init entries.
      – To enable the multi-init grub menu after first install from iso just run
      sudo dpkg-reconfigure grub-multi-init-enabler

      Username = antix
      Password for user and root = antix

      This work would not have been possible without the active cooperation of Eric (Obarun), aitor (gnuinos) and antiX testers and devs.

      Download here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/antix-linux/files/Testing/

      Please post comments at the antiX forum.

      • This topic was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by anticapitalista. Reason: fixed typo
      • This topic was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by anticapitalista.

      Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

      antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

      #133306
      Member
      PPC

        I’m “officially” impressed by this! I hope this means that future antiX versions, post 23.1 will be multi-init, saving you a lot of work, and reducing user confusion, due to the very large number of .iso files antiX has available for each version (sysv and runit)!
        That said… does any of the new init systems have something that’s “a great improvement” over the “official” ones?

        EDIT: found this old post, comparing s6 and systemd: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1105854.html also, this more recent post: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Comparison_of_init_systems.

        EDIT2: video comparing init systems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkkU1CHI3TY
        OK, so S6 runs laps around systemd, is a bit faster than runit

        P.

        • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by PPC.
        • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by PPC.
        #133316
        Forum Admin
        anticapitalista

          It’s not really to do with speed or even RAM usage, but control, simplicity and/or complexity.

          In my tests, I have found s6 to boot faster than all the others, and runit to use the least RAM.
          Of course, user will not notice any apps running faster or more efficiently either.
          That would be a placebo.

          Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

          antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

          #133318
          Member
          PPC

            I have found s6 to boot faster than all the others, and runit to use the least RAM.

            and

            user will not notice any apps running faster or more efficiently either.

            This is about what I thought. My own opinion would be to stick with the option that uses the least RAM. No one really notices half a dozen seconds more during the system start up… but a couple of MB of idle RAM, on a RAM strapped computer (like my netbook) can make a great difference.
            Inits are not something that I care deeply about- if the system works well and uses very few resources, I’m fine with any default choice that you make!

            A bit off-topic – someone developed a “fake systemd”, currently unmaintained (https://github.com/kvaps/fake-systemd). Would a similar idea to that possibly be useful to improve antiX’s usability (or, ideally, in the future enable users to run systemd dependent software?). I toyed with the idea of including, in the .bashrc file (or somewhere else) an “emulation” of systemd related commands, but I though that would be taken as an incentive to try to run systemd on antiX, so I aborted that idea… I’m not really thinking about systemd shim, that MX uses… but, well, I don’t understand enough about the subject to have a more detailed idea.

            P.

            #133321
            Moderator
            Brian Masinick

              I’ve been using these “init-diversity” builds since they first became available and they
              work really well. In fact, I’m using it right now.

              The only difficulty I personally experienced so far is the documented one – you
              must run sudo dpkg-reconfigure grub-multi-init-enabler immediately after installing
              the ISO image, then reboot in order to see all four of the init options.
              Also, the first time you run it, you have to boot the first entry, and run the dpkg-reconfigure;
              if you do not do these two first steps properly, then the behavior is NOT completely correct;
              that’s a pretty minor restriction for a development work in progress!

              As long as you carefully follow those instructions – and I repeat – first boot from the
              top (default) entry, then run sudo dpkg-reconfigure grub-multi-init-enabler immediately after
              booting the new image, then reboot, you will be able to select the sysVinit, runit, s6-rc, or s6-66
              init and try them all out!

              --
              Brian Masinick

              #133322
              Member
              calciumsodium

                First, diversity. I think you forgot the r in the title.

                Boot in live DVD.

                1. Booted into init-default OK. The default looks like sysvinit. Tried to reboot. It went into the shutdown stage to reboot. It popped out the DVD. But the system freezes. No reboot. Had to do a hard shutdown and then power button to restart.

                2. Booted into init-sysvinit OK. Tried to reboot. It went into the shutdown stage to reboot. It popped out the DVD. But the system freezes. No reboot. Had to do a hard shutdown and then power button to restart.

                3. Booted into init-runit OK. It reboots fine.

                4. Booted into init-s6-rc OK. Tried to reboot. It went into the shutdown stage to reboot. But the system freezes. No DVD popped. No reboot. Had to do a hard shutdown and then power button to restart.

                5. Booted into init-s6-66 OK. Tried to reboot. But the system does nothing. Tried sudo /lib/s6-66/reboot, but error message says system is down for reboot. But no reboot. Had to do a hard shutdown and then power button to restart.

                So running live DVD, runit system is the only one that reboots.

                #133328
                Forum Admin
                anticapitalista

                  At the moment, the live side is the least developed.
                  Think of running live as a show case of running a particular init as a live user. Play around with stopping/starting services such as printing (cups). Add/remove software.Reboot and start all over again. That’s it (for now).

                  The iso is really intended to be installed and user should really stick to using their init of choice, though its creator ProwlerGR may beg to differ.
                  In fact, this might be a good test case.
                  Install > Enable the multi-init grub menu > Play around > Choose s6 and keep 66 > Remove/purge runit and sysVinit

                  Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

                  antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

                  #133344
                  Moderator
                  Brian Masinick

                    First, diversity. I think you forgot the r in the title.

                    Boot in live DVD.

                    1. Booted into init-default OK. The default looks like sysvinit. Tried to reboot. It went into the shutdown stage to reboot. It popped out the DVD. But the system freezes. No reboot. Had to do a hard shutdown and then power button to restart.

                    2. Booted into init-sysvinit OK. Tried to reboot. It went into the shutdown stage to reboot. It popped out the DVD. But the system freezes. No reboot. Had to do a hard shutdown and then power button to restart.

                    3. Booted into init-runit OK. It reboots fine.

                    4. Booted into init-s6-rc OK. Tried to reboot. It went into the shutdown stage to reboot. But the system freezes. No DVD popped. No reboot. Had to do a hard shutdown and then power button to restart.

                    5. Booted into init-s6-66 OK. Tried to reboot. But the system does nothing. Tried sudo /lib/s6-66/reboot, but error message says system is down for reboot. But no reboot. Had to do a hard shutdown and then power button to restart.

                    So running live DVD, runit system is the only one that reboots.

                    As @anticapitalista said, this particular instance is best used installed because there are a few matters that still have to be further improved so that both the live and the installed versions behave as expected.

                    @ProwlerGr has documented them and I have mentioned them at least twice myself. I believe that the antiX and Obarun communities are in collaboration to further improve the boot and init recognition and selecting methods so that they will work better for future editions. Meanwhile please take the time to read the s6 thread to understand what’s necessary.

                    --
                    Brian Masinick

                    #133381
                    Member
                    ProwlerGr

                      The iso is really intended to be installed and user should really stick to using their init of choice, though its creator ProwlerGR may beg to differ.
                      In fact, this might be a good test case.

                      I don’t really beg to differ in that aspect of your opinion.
                      The user should have the freedom pick their init of choice of the many provided & blow away/uninstall the rest.

                      Where I may differ:
                      Personally, I don’t care if the whole systemd is installed on my system & /sbin/init points to systemd, as long as I’m able to fully boot to my init of choice without seeing (any – or – my choice of) systemd processes in my pstree & htop.

                      Just a few things about me & my train of thought:

                      I was not a real antiX user until the start of this journey with s6.
                      I had it installed on a spare old laptop & I had toyed with the old 2019 era POC instructions by @fungalnet & @eric, but I wasn’t really using antiX in any serious manner.
                      This has obviously changed now, after using antiX 23 extensively it has grown on me, it will remain my dail driver for a loooong time.

                      The actual goal is to bring the freedom to any Debian-based distro user to install & use any fully functioning init (even systemd if it is their choice), without it being shoved down the throat, & without breaking any other init.

                      The (systemd) init war was lost in 2014 and our aim in 2024 should be to try and gradually win it back over in peace, by demonstrating much better init alternative(s), installed harmonically alongside each other without interfering with each other’s ecosystem.
                      This in my opinion would be the only way for Debian to consider & embrace any alternative init systems without requiring GR wars, & respecting most of their developers choice.
                      They are already bound to 2019 GR “focus on systemd but explore alternatives”, which means “we will consider alternatives – if they don’t break systemd – but you have to do the work”, which is what is currently being the plan of attack.

                      #133382
                      Moderator
                      Brian Masinick

                        @prowlergr

                        I like your thoughts on this.
                        This approach may help to gain traction for at least allowing other init alternatives to run side by side with an arbitrary init.

                        @anticapitalista helped us demonstrate that *elogin* can be eliminated from the environment.

                        With your approach we can conceivably operate with or without systemd on any given system. I completely understand that most people here want a 100% systemd free environment and we’re able to do this.

                        Another way is to live side by side with systemd in order to offer an alternative to it. I’m interested in exploring the possibilities of both approaches.

                        I’m keeping an open mind in order to give us choices; that’s a top goal for me. I believe the healthiest ecosystem is one that contains both commercial and free systems, and within these, a wealth of choices. Alternatives and freedom creates competitive energy, which is capable of drawing out progress and ideas. Our lean system has certainly been a fruitful platform for the development of many efficient and helpful ideas and great software.

                        --
                        Brian Masinick

                        #133386
                        Member
                        ile

                          Hello anticapitalista and ProwlerGr and equipe antiX
                          23.1 Congratulations.

                          Hats Off to you.

                          #133396
                          Member
                          olsztyn

                            The (systemd) init war was lost in 2014 and our aim in 2024 should be to try and gradually win it back over in peace, by demonstrating much better init alternative(s), installed harmonically alongside each other without interfering with each other’s ecosystem.
                            This in my opinion would be the only way for Debian to consider & embrace any alternative init systems without requiring GR wars, & respecting most of their developers choice.

                            Thank you @ProwlerGr for this insightful assessment…
                            So, if my understanding is correct, after 10 years, following the defeat of other init systems in Debian’s world by systemd, the best strategy would be to add systemd init option to the antiX syslinux (and grub) menu. This would clearly demonstrate to Debian that coexistence of other init systems with systemd is completely peaceful and users can chose their init system at will and hopefully on the base of merits rather than being forced to adopt one over the others based on pure ideology and politics in Linux world.
                            This would give the users an opportunity to evaluate and compare init options on the the same Linux distro in terms of performance, memory footprint and functionality.
                            Such demonstration of peaceful coexistence of five init systems in one distro would be phenomenal not only from technical perspective but also as extension of the existing antiX strategy of multi-init antiX…
                            War that was started in 2014 would be ended in 2024 and peace would prevail with respect and recognition of all choices on technical grounds, setting aside ideology and politics…

                            • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by olsztyn.

                            Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
                            http://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

                            #133399
                            Member
                            PPC

                              which means “we will consider alternatives – if they don’t break systemd – but you have to do the work”, which is what is currently being the plan of attack.

                              So I assume, that eventually, once the “multi-init” system is working fully on antiX, you will propose it to the Debian Dev team (i.e. multi-init boot offering systemd and runit, s6, etc?)
                              Unfortunately, I assume that, for the short time, the “init wars” are really lost. Systemd sank it’s teeth into everything. The only way out for main stream distros would be a “compatibility layer” of some kind, that lets software meant for systemd to keep working even without it (hum… kind of a broader “elogind”). I could live with that (not that inits matter much to me, but having 100% of the software meant for Debian working, out of the box, without the need for anticapitalista to compile nosystemd versions would be great).

                              Also (as a side note, because flatpacks require elogind and snaps require systemd), I really, really think that universal packages are the way to go, for Linux future- but even on that, the “Linuxverse” seems divided between snaps and flatpaks (and that is stupid, they both are their use cases- flatpaks can’s install cli apps, and snaps can be used for cli apps, kernels, everything…)

                              P.

                              • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by PPC.
                              • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by PPC.
                              #133411
                              Moderator
                              Brian Masinick

                                @PPC Regarding “all inclusive package bundles”, I’d rather use an App-Image and I DO use them for one app, the Ungoogled Chromium Web browser. Incidentally when you take OUT the Google stuff Ungoogled Chromium is the lightest full featured browser. Netsurf and Dillo are lighter still, but for me, are only useful for reading text documents and not much else.

                                Regarding the init wars, I do get why many distros go with systemd. What they actually get is an infrastructure capable of managing many aspects of the system, not just the init.

                                What do you give up in order to get it? Now that is why many people object. It’s something that was written by the largest Linux vendor, more of a commercial software company than a free services company and they’re now owned by Big Blue, IBM, one of the largest international companies. Based on the many comments I read here, many people object to huge companies like IBM, Microsoft, Apple and Google. I get it.

                                I love our software and I prefer it too but I do have a broader overall view. I believe there is a legitimate place for Apple, Google, IBM, Microsoft, Oracle and other large companies and there is also a place for small companies, both commercial and free. It’s all about the “freedom of choice” that I personally advocate. My individual choices are 100% free software and semi free Google and Ungoogled alternatives plus the Linux varieties, unencumbered BSD options.

                                I used to have a system that had two hard drives and was able to boot Windows, several Linux distributions, FreeBSD, Open BSD, Net BSD and vxWorks real-time OS. Haven’t put that kind of system together in a long time. The most recent BSD I tried was NomadBSD. It doesn’t do anything for me anymore so instead I run multiple instances of antiX.

                                --
                                Brian Masinick

                                #133420
                                Member
                                entropyagent

                                  >
                                  I love our software and I prefer it too but I do have a broader overall view. I believe there is a legitimate place for Apple, Google, IBM, Microsoft, Oracle and other large companies and there is also a place for small companies, both commercial and free. It’s all about the “freedom of choice” that I personally advocate
                                  >

                                  It’s possibly worth bearing in mind, as one formulates one’s view, that “they” do not necessarily regard small orgs, both commercial and free, as anything more than a resource from which ideas, talent and labour can be harvested. And that might be only when they don’t think in terms of “cancer”. Maybe.

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