Why Antix? And What does MX/Antix have with LIve USB that others do not?

[Member Danathar]

I did a presentation for my local user group meeting about the Live USB features of Antix/MX. Many thanks to DolphinOracle for his AWESOME videos. I used them in my presentation 😉

I have here, a kinda friendly “Devil’s Advocate” question regarding Antix and Live USB from one of the LUG members. I’m going to post it here but would GREATLY appreciate any responses. So here it is! Many thanks for any responses!
—

You asked me for a my question in writing too. Let me prefix this with
stating, that I’m simply trying to understand the “why” here. Why would
I want to use Antix (or MX) and particular why would I want to use this
method for USB based Linux vs. the other LiveUSB solutions out there?
When it comes to desktop use, I am most likely way outside the typical
end-user so I may be seeing challenges that aren’t there provided the
use-case for this.

OSTREE based OSes have existed for 10+ years. It’s a rather proven
technology that’s in use for not only embedded devices but it’s how
Fedora’s Silverblue is done, but you’ll find a very similar but scaled
down version for LiveUSB images, a system I see duplicated on lots of
embedded devices: R/O system file system (usually an img file) that some
system call “firmware” – this image is a full rootfs, often bootable etc
so the image can be positioned on a usual boot devices. Once the system
boots a separate volume/file system is added a COW system, it turns the
system image in to full R/O and any change done to temporary files or
permanent configuration files are written to this new system. When you
get an update of the “firmware” it’s simply rolled into the partition
where the other image was (or you have support for more than one image
so failures don’t brick your system), and when the system boots the COW
is added on top again. This is targeted towards systems where you don’t
“dnf update” – all updates comes from a new image, and the COW is for
dynamic files, log files, configuration files etc. that you want to
preserve across upgrades. This makes making embedded devices using Linux
simple – and it doesn’t have any distro-dependencies.

SilverBlue https://silverblue.fedoraproject.org/download is Fedora’s
attempt to move this idea into the desktop. It is NOT created with
little memory in mind – it’s a full Fedora setup that defaults to GNOME
after all, but it is created with the idea of easy management and setup.
It’s OSTREE based and created/configured with running containers and
flatpaks in mind. In other words, users are not allowed to change system
files – they are managed through replacing the “system file” that OSTREE
mounts. Instead users install/instantiate containers where they can
change/set whatever they want – even older and conflicting versions of
system libraries in the system. The update is a single command that
replaces the system image.

As to LiveUSBs I loved seeing a very different angle from what I’m used
to. If you look at (1) you’ll see what I mean by different. “Fedora
Media Writer” is all that is needed. I cannot remember what the same
type of tool is called on the Ubuntu side, but gone are the days of
needing to DD anything. WORSE, you had to use sudo to run your installer
– that raised alarms for me, we can definitely do better as it comes to
end-user tools. The Media Writer is a download, validate and write to
USB in one. As you can see from the attached screendump you pick “what
you want” and hit the “create live USB” button. The rest is automatic.
It will download (if you don’t have it already) and write to the USB all
without needing root rights. You can pick from all the spins available.
Or, when you become an advanced user, you can create your own “Live ISO”
that has the content you want, the configurations you want, to be
available out of the box. Provide that as a URL and others can now use
it too. I say all of this to make this question easier to understand:

* What/who is targeted with MX and Antix’s many questions during
install? Understanding concepts like rootfs, file systems,
partitions/volumes etc. are all concepts non IT people will have issues
with, so if this is targeted towards IT users under what conditions does
this make sense? What’s the use-case for something this complex?

Recall we’re talking USB based systems – so why would I need to save USB
images with customizations over and over again? Once the USB is created,
I can keep using it? Of course USB based OSes – something that only
exists and runs from the USB – are slow as molasses. USBs are not meant
to handle the writes needed to support a modern OS. So if you instead
move it all to RAM, what’s the point of talking how little RAM is used
by the OS running when the FS is all located in RAM too?

* It’s been many years since I saw USB sticks with 4GB or less. What is
the use-case trying to make it all fit into 2MB? With Fedora’s Live
Image, if there’s enough space you get the option to setup a part of the
USB as a large COW for /home and other changes. In some cases I’ve had
/home mounting a local file system while the USB itself is
self-contained. This is something I can setup once I have installed the
USB – or the user can choose FUSE land to add user-only file systems later.

* The desktops I use have VMs and/or containers running on them. The
idea of having to rsync these files on a regular basis scares me. Again,
from a use-case perspective is there a limited scope here? My general
fear is that “grandma” won’t have a clue how to use the features you
outlined, so even as a low-level user-workstations it seems you’ll need
regular IT help to keep it updated/managed? I get the feeling that the
use-case is not for permanent use, but something that you can easily
instantiate “in the field” and take down again when done, not something
you leave behind? And if that’s true, I don’t understand the “only a
few hundred MB of RAM” requirement – even the motel6 computer in the
lobby has more than 2GB of RAM – most likely 4 or 8GB.

You mentioned mass installation at one point. I would definitely not use
LiveUSBs as a system admin in charge of hundreds or thousands of
workstations. That would be old fashioned PXE and a local repository,
with a management access to control each workstations with centralized
settings/configurations etc. To make something others can use, see my
comment about creating a custom ISO and making it available for
download. That’s not as hard as it may sound (2). And yeah, all the
spins provide their “source” in this manner – so if you like the
Electronics Workstation but want to add your own twist on it, it’s
really simple.

Sorry, this became much longer than I wanted. The short version: Help me
understand the use-case for MX and Antix?

1) https://silverblue.fedoraproject.org/download
2)
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/creating-and-using-a-live-installation-image/

• This topic was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by Danathar.
• This topic was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by Danathar.

[Member ModdIt]

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Did you actualy try using and gaining some understanding understanding of antiX before writing the things here.

You seem to expect forum members to spend free time doing a lot of thinking for you.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by ModdIt.

[Member Danathar]

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I didn’t do the question above. I was just forwarding the question from a user who watched my presentation about antix at the LUG.

Apologies on that. I should of stated that more clearly.

Dolphin Oracle gave me a nice answer which which was very interesting.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by Danathar.

[Forum Admin rokytnji]

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All I got to say. No matter how I make my live usb for my toshiba touchscreen with a fubar hard drive wiring harness.

Will never run as fast as it used to. Can’t beat choke points. Turns a I-5 laptop into circa single core pentium 4.

Plus side. I can use it. It , , boots on anything. Posting this from a chromebook install. Small hard drive. 16 gig.

Live sessions are cool. We are not limited like other distros. When it comes to using /user/local/bin.

Seeing that systemd likes to be tyrant with our file systems.

I use MX toolbox. Mx Linux. AntiX full iso mostly. Ubuntu on one box to keep my foot in the water. Don’t spend much time on it though.
Seems Ubuntu is going snap all the way in a few years for packaging .
Then I will dry my foot.

I don’t have the frugal antix install skill nailed down yet. Have other stuff going on.

Edit: Thanks for your hard work at the lug. It takes courage to stand in front of a group and answer questions. The ones with more knowledge should understand. Can’t argue with opinionated ignorance or just meanness.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by rokytnji.

Sometimes I drive a crooked road to get my mind straight.
Not all who Wander are Lost.
I'm not outa place. I'm from outer space.

Linux Registered User # 475019
How to Search for AntiX solutions to your problems

[Member olsztyn]

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Danathar wrote:

Dolphin Oracle gave me a nice answer which which was very interesting.

The way I am using antiX Live is as an immutable OS. It is fully configured including all customizations and run Live without any persistence. For permanent changes I want to implement I am using remastering, after sufficient testing beforehand. So if something goes wrong with implementing changes I just reboot, to return to pristine original state. If someone prefers persistence, then return to the original state is accomplished by a simple deleting persistence files.

I am curious what was the answer from Dolphin_Oracle, unless it is private and confidential, of course.
Thanks and Regards.

Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
https://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

[Forum Admin rokytnji]

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PS. A window manager live usb always runs faster than desktop environment usb. I know from experience. When I tried the above on that toshiba unit.

Sometimes I drive a crooked road to get my mind straight.
Not all who Wander are Lost.
I'm not outa place. I'm from outer space.

Linux Registered User # 475019
How to Search for AntiX solutions to your problems

[Forum Admin rokytnji]

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Maybe this one

https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.php?p=658608#p658608

Sometimes I drive a crooked road to get my mind straight.
Not all who Wander are Lost.
I'm not outa place. I'm from outer space.

Linux Registered User # 475019
How to Search for AntiX solutions to your problems

[Member olsztyn]

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Danathar wrote:

Help me
understand the use-case for MX and Antix?

My use case of antiX is as I described above – Set in stone Live with no persistence. So I cannot speak for those users who traditionally installed antiX on their computers, which not be an immutable OS is such case.
I the meantime I did install Silverblue on one of my test laptops – Thinkpad X61 – Core2Duo 2Ghz with 4Gb memory.
After initial rudimentary testing (I may be playing with this OS more though):
– Initial memory use, before running any apps – 1.2Gb. Initial memory use by fully configured antiX Live on this machine is 132M.
– Browsing available apps in App Library on Silberblue – appears to be very limited, just very basic. Hopefully rpm-ostree will have more.
– Initial performance feeling – Silverblue appears rather slow in comparison to antiX Live.
– I can see Silverblue self-provisioning in action, where pieces of system and apps are self-upgrading on the fly. However I am not sure I like such approach.

Architecture of Silverblue appears very interesting though and core OS structure seems very similar to Intel’s Clear Linux, as far as structure of root folders is concerned, which means good for reliability of core system. User layer is completely isolated. Similarity seems so great that I would not be surprised if Intel’s Clear Linux is not derived from the same architecture concept. For comparison, Debian based antiX structure is more vulnerable to be messy and more prone to potential of corruption.

It seems Silverblue still has way to go to become a useful end-user system, particularly on less powered machines. To me general issues are:
– Inefficiency of layered architecture.
– Very limited availability of software.

Thanks again and Regards…

Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
https://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

[Moderator christophe]

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With antiX live system, one can run it “frugal” from hdd/ssd. Frugal eliminates the bottleneck that a usb stick/port may impose. But regardless of the boot-device, it allows for the locked-down method that olsztyn uses (and others on the forum, myself included), and incompassing setups ranging all the way up to mimicing a “normal” installation (with the added task of (easily) remastering once in a while).

I also like how I can backup, add, remove, substitute the frugal instances to my bootloader with minimal effort and time.

It all runs with minimal ram and maximum program availablity. And antiX is very fast, regardless of the installation method.

I like the live system’s flexibility. 🙂

confirmed antiX frugaler, since 2019

[Member olsztyn]

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christophe wrote:

With antiX live system, one can run it “frugal” from hdd/ssd. Frugal eliminates the bottleneck that a usb stick/port may impose.

Thank you Christophe…
To add to this Frugal install option, antiX can be also run proper Live from SATA internal HD. I am using this way as well on one laptop. It boots from HD as Live instance. So if media reliability is a question or performance, then either Frugal or Live from internal HD resolves any such question.
However, even if Live is on regular USB stick media I have not seen any performance issues and media reliability should not be an issue either as USB Live media is used only for read operation when configured with no persistence.

Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
https://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

[Member olsztyn]

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I just want to add in relation to the title of this thread:
As far as I know antiX Live architecture and tools around it is a unique and quite dexterous design. I have not found any such recognition and importance of Live system with any other distro I know. It allows you to snapshot a fully configured system and create Live instance out of it.
It would be a significant asset to some other distros if such Live set of tools could be adapted to their own distros. It is open and free software after all, but I have not seen other distros to incorporate this except CoreOS has announced adoption of these tools from MX.
When I asked in this forum why not make these Live tools more generic, to be used with other distros the response was that the source code is available freely, so if other distros are interested they can take the code and modify to make it work with their distros. On antiX side there is no need or incentive to invest work and time in order to make it generic.
It seems a loss to general Linux community that such best designs are not widely adopted or available.
Just MHO…

Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
https://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

[Member ModdIt]

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On an identical system, I have 2 absolutely identical indistrial PC. 2GB Memory core duo.

The creation updates itself, er anything controlled by those under Patriot act can be installed at any time. Thanks no.

#why would I need to save USB images with customizations over and over again? Once the USB is created,
I can keep using it?

Sure but most of us will update it, add new applications, maybe delete some, we just take a minute coffee remaster and happily
get on with whatever we wish to do. Rebooting when we feel like it.

Maybe the questioner wants anchient software full of holes on user devices But advocates a system that can apply updates out of the controll of the user.

# Of course USB based OSes – something that only exists and runs from the USB – are slow as molasses. USBs are not meant to handle the writes needed to
support a modern OS.

Silverblue is Much slower in use than antiX although antiX is running LIVE from USB, Port is 2.1, red hat creation from internal SSD.
AntiX can be installed to internal disks run frugaly, more important to many it will run without any internal drive quite happily, low memory usage
means in most cases nothing swapping.

USB devices are unable to run that way, many of mine are several years old, I had issues with one, the manufacturer Transcend admitted a controller problem,
provides an online repair tool. I am running from that stick now.

So if you instead
move it all to RAM, what’s the point of talking how little RAM is used by the OS running when the FS is all located in RAM too?

Logic is not somebodys strong point, a low rescourse OS leaves expensive hardware free to run applications in the best possible manner.
It also allows older harware to remain in productive use for longer periods. Saves energy all along the lifetime. Saves costs for user,
company corporations.

“grandma” won’t have a clue how to use the features you outlined, so even as a low-level user-workstations it seems you’ll need
regular IT help to keep it updated/managed?

Nuts to that statement, my worst user can write update in the console, she does it regularly, she also clicked on to the antix app shop
without issue. She usually runs an installed system, that was done with hand holding, it makes her proud. She also knows if she plugs in
a USB stick called F12, Transcend and taps F12 she can chose Transcend and run her well known and trusted system from that drive.

To the consternation of certain IT Experts she has done so on several occasions, including in a cafe belonging to a senior residence where the
so called admin had an apoplexy attack. Windoze was not running….

something that you can easily instantiate “in the field” Correct, one reason I use antiX daily, for work play troubleshooting and
fixing user systems.

and take down again when done, not something you leave behind?

Wrong, whenever possible I work transparently, User or mister super IT expert next to me, I use a stick created
without my specific user settings, ie no E Mail Password etc. It is very rare not to be asked,

where can I buy those tools. Er 4 Euro or a cappuccino good enough.. Pls visit antiX forum bye…..

[Member ModdIt]

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Just a further note
ALL users I support install own system, just need a bit of help and explanation,
Partitions, for old persons like containers for portions of cake, need right size for stuff to fit.

For the young, majority are really quick to learn, it would after all be embarrasing when the 70
Plus grey haired old fart next to them was wiser in tech than they are. I never look down on even the
slowest, just tell them come on, you can understand and do it, come on lets try again together.

Not one user has gone back to daily use of windoze on own devices, exception boot to games..
one went to an i Pad, my daughter, she was forced by school policy and uses it next to linux.
That is a fact I find very interesting, it generaly happens due frustration and is a slow change.
Screwed up windoze 10 updates were a real motivator for change.

I make nutty funny as possible cheat sheets at times. Fun things are easier to memorise.
Despair trying to teach keyboard shortcuts. Email Office one browser are ready for use after login,
all autostart to assigned desktops.

Start icons are on autohiding taskbar, not much need for menu. It is sleek liooks good fast and lean.
Usable screen is maximised with a thinnest theme BobC made.

I distro hopped for many years, see no reason to move anymore.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by ModdIt.

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